ACP20 Pers Form 1-19


and I am sure that they speak highly of you!



From your point about other Volunteer Organisations I looked for examples of how they did things. I found the following document very interesting

I found the first part of the recommendations quite poignant!

Recommendations for National Trust Policy & Practice

  1. Recognise emotional labour as a key leadership and management skill
    Having an ability to remain calm, make volunteers feel valued and listened to, consider their feelings and make them feel a key part of the team is often hard, relentless emotional work but it is one that pays dividends. Volunteers are a highly committed, vocal and often fearless voice in the National Trust but they are also an incredibly valuable resource for these very reasons. Management of volunteers is emotionally complex and needs to be acknowledged as such.”

So is this “21st Century” enough for you? HQRAFAC’s actions seem quite alien to the principles above!

Managing volunteers is very, very difficult. I fully understand this. But managing us only using ultimatums is not good or fair!

Your point about the ACF being in a worse situation and we are now joining them, just shows we are in a race to the bottom!

I am very aware that I volunteer in a disciplined organisation and there are many times I have to do as I am told. But just accepting poor, ill thought instructions without question bodes very badly for the future of this organisation!

We do not have enough staff in the Squadrons in my Wing. Around 6 units do not have an active commissioned Commanding Officer. Compare this to when I was first commissioned, when there was at least two applications for any vacant post, and people had to be a Flying Officer for at least 4 years before consideration for any Command Role.

This document will affect future staffing!


Hear what you are saying, however you have to accept that we are part of the military. Like it or not they fund us in a lot of ways from buildings and rent to Travel claims and VA to providing us with flying opportunities (sore subject i know but they have done and will do … struggling at the moment i agree), shooting, AT Centres, Uniforms etc etc. I also agree that the MoD does find it difficult dealing with volunteers, its not in their normal day to day workings they are used to dealing with people that do their bidding. We as the volunteers have to recognise that in some of the policies that are produced, in some cases read it and take it with a pinch of salt. The volunteers agreement just gives the MoD in military speak some kind of agreement between them and the volunteer. Are they really going to do all that they say they are going to do in the agreement without going through due process / diligence, no of course not. However they have been snowed under with volunteers raising service complaints because their feelings have been hurt in some way or another. We as an organisation have raised more service complaints than the regulars. We, in effect, have caused this agreement to be written and written in a way that the MoD are happy with, they in effect are who we report to at the top level. Will the agreement really have any effect on how we deal with our cadets, probably not, will it have any effect on the time we spend on squadron doing squadron activities, probably not, will it have any impact on your life in general, probably not. However will H&S have an effect, yes, will more nonsensical form filling have an effect, yes, will people who wear the uniform to pretend they are someone they are not have an effect, yes, will the local permanent staff who turn up and steal oxygen on a weekly basis have an effect, yes.


Ah i see it s all our fault.How dare anyone complain about being treat badly.I was at the epicentre of one of these so called piffling complaints and I can tell you now the person involved had his life turned upside down inside out and had to fight all the way to be even listened to.The sqn was badly damaged morale wise and staff left in disgust as well as the civ comm treasurer and chairman.As to the agreement itself all that has to be done is for the wording to be changed so that everyone is clear as to what is required.The way it is at the moment the HQAC mob and MOD are having their cake and eating it.
As to being part of the military thats a laugh Ive been in the military and you know where you stood there unless this lot who make it up as they go along.
I dont go in for forelock tugging and I certainly wont be signing this document until its changed or properly explained…


Yeah ok. Been in the military as well, survived 2 SDR’s and then left due to the MoD not knowing what they were doing, or so it appeared. Messed around with too many trades to try and cut costs, we had no idea what the plan was, we had no idea what the end game was, so I am well versed in being kept in the dark and getting on with things. I am not saying that all complaints were not valid, i am saying that the majority of complaints were just nonsensical because someone’s feelings were hurt.
Don’t sign the agreement, ask for it to be explained, sign / don’t sign totally your decision … i have read it, i have signed it, my staff have read it and signed it, because it makes no difference to us.


But now I have a civilian Commission, I’m part of a Military based organisation, not IN the Military! Our RC clearly stated at our Wings CO’s conference that we are not, and never have been, part of the RAF. The ATC is just a hobby, on par with his hobby of driving Trucks!

Anyway, enough of the debate… Time to wish everyone on ACC a Happy Christmas and an entertaining NewYear!!


Well I see the update to SMS allows us to sign and upload the VA. Simple I intend to put a line through of things I don’t agree with and up load it’s going to take manpower to printing or look at 15000 copies


That WAS YOUR JOB. You could not just up and leave. You were getting well paid to suck it up. Volunteers in the RAFAC are just that. Able to walk away. For most of my life the ATC has been apart of it. For me to walk away will be difficult but it that day is getting closer that aomthing will happen to push me over the edge. Thereis only so much you can suck up.


Yawn …


Actually, you can upload to say you’ve sign but the upload the certificate option isn’t working; found that out the other week when trying to upload a copy of my AFA certificate. :zipper_mouth_face:


Might be wrong I thought I see something about putting it on and then going in a second time to.upload the doc have a look.on landing or help page


Done it several times!! But to no avail.


My main issue with this document is the, we’ll take your time and effort for as long as we want and then dismiss you tomorrow with no mention of any due process to ensure it’s done fairly and with no personal bias.

Equally it is all a document about what you can do for us and nothing on their commitment for what they will do in return. Even just to ensure we are adequately trained to help prevent inadvertent transgressions. There are no benefits of volunteering listed. Other organisations I have volunteered for DO do this.

Even the VA section, you can do an approved duty but we’ll only pay you if we fancy it. BTW it is pay, the HMRC haven’t changed their definition, hence why we pay income tax and NI on the employment. Take a look on the HMRC website if you don’t believe me.


Watch this space once Christmas and New Year is out of the way im referring this to my union regional legal officer as to me its not something that would ever stand up in an employment tribunal and should be fought all the way.


Which union?


I will work on the basis that as they havent sent me any RAFAC tabs yet, that they clearly dont want me to consider this yet!


I really couldn’t care less what they think of me as their opinion carries no weight in my real life. They operate in a bubble punching way above their weight and if that bubble burst no one would be any the wiser or really, really care, outside of that bubble.


I have not read the document but if it is anything like the ACF version than it probably is written in a very stark way. That said there is a procedure that must be followed in any cases of disciplinary action. The relevant regulations will, or should, give clarification what behaviour or action could result in action being taken against a person. If action is taken then it must be done in accordance with the regulation and due process followed.

If you are unhappy with the outcome of disciplinary action there should be an appeals procedure and that should be explained.

The point I am trying to make is just because the Volunteer Agreement mentions dismissal it does not follow that this sanction will be used as a first response in disciplinary matters.


If you are trying to encourage people into the Corps as staff, having a stark, employment contract sounding agreement isn’t the way forward, especially as unlike many other organisations which rely on volunteers, youth organisations rely massively on people who are working and have families, so spare time is at a premium.

TBH if they decided to pursue some sort of discip action how the individual feels about the organisation at the time would influence their decision to challenge or not. As there is no financial reward what would be the reason to fight it? If it was allegations of financial or sexual misconduct you would be more inclined to fight, but little else, as you could just resign and get your life back.


That’s already my experience - there is sufficient antipathy towards the organisation, and I mean the structure and hierarchy rather than cadets, the Sqn and fellow staff, that people are just binning it rather than fight out an emotionally fraught and protracted battle in an attempt to prove their innocence.

Two recent cases leap to mind, one where the bloke was entirely innocent - and I know this because it was me who was involved in the incident, while the accused was about 4 miles away - and another the exact truth of which I’m not sure of. In both situations the people involved had left the organisation within a few weeks of being told that there was going to be an investigation into their conduct, and in both cases the accused told their colleagues, me in one of the cases, that the game simply wasn’t worth the candle. So they binned it.