ACP20 Pers Form 1-19


If you wish, but you will merely be asked to close the door quietly as you leave.



Where can I see a copy of this document. I don’t see it on sharepoint.



What about events leading up to today leads you to believe you have a voice inside this organisation?


While that’s entirely true, a) you don’t have to be quiet, and b), what do you think HQAC’s views are going to be on the take it or leave it attitude as the thousandth uniformed member of staff says ‘ok, see ya…’?

You know, when they begin to grasp that FTRS posts for Group Captains and Air Commodores kind of rely on having an organisation to run?


But the debacle of the CFC Commission and the surveys, whose results were ignored when they didn’t give the results they wanted, shows how much they respect the opinions of the staff of the organisation.
Why should we have to make the choice above? Why can’t the RAFAC treat their rare Staff resource better?


They haven’t realised this so far … they are not intelligent enough.

They are too caught up in playing the RAF part of the RAFAC and not the AC part.


Fill a bucket with water, insert your hand then withdraw It smoothly and quickly. Note how long it takes for for the hole left by your hand to fill with water. Repeat as required then consider results.

Make a noise if you wish, but it will change nothing and it’s unlikely that anyone will be interested.

It’s entirely up to you.



Have to agree, it’s all huff and bluster from a minority of keyboard warriors. The corps will continue. Thousands of volunteers are not going to “rise up against the empire” I’m afraid, quite delusional if anyone thinks that is going to happen. If you don’t want to sign it then don’t. It’s your choice, but then don’t be surprised by the inevitable letter that asks you to leave.


Cant disagree with this comment.Acting in isolation will bring exactly that result.My point is people need to stand up and be counted. Im willing to do that because im fed up with being lectured to by people who have no interest in treating me or anyone else staff wise with any sort of respect. Im going to push this as far as I can and maybe just maybe change something that needs changing.People can only be pushed so far.If your happy to be treat like this fine.Personally im tired and angry about this.


Thanks, just read it. Just coming up to 28 years (SNCO) service in ATC (sorry RAFAC), I don’t ever remember signing anything about why I wanted to join as a volunteer, so why should I have to sign this form to quantify what I have been doing for the last 28 years.


No need for the correction, unless you’ve been both ATC and CCF (or served on a VGS, etc)


I’m all for switching off the lights, when mums & dads stop sending their kids our way. In the meantime I’ll do the same as all other youth organisation volunteers.


It is my choice you are quite right! My big issue is why, after many years of service, do we have to make this choice.
I have never suggested we rise up, as that is pointless and would never change anything. I am just asking why it seems all ‘take’ at the moment within the ATC?
I can add “Keyboard Warrior” to the list of put downs that have been used to describe me, purely because I hold a different opinion about all these changes!


The hand in a bucket of water line is BS in the voluntary sector.

Someone leaving only has a minimal effect in a situation where you can employ people. Even then the new people cannot fully replace the skills and experience of those who leave, immediately. Very occasionally you get lucky, but it is very occasionally. But in the ATC you have people who are starting from scratch.

In the voluntary sector it’s more like putting your hand in a bucket of sand and taking handful out. I challenge anyone to say that a member of staff leaving does not create a hole. This is the same in any voluntary group and it only seems in our organisation is such is the conceit of senior management and the scorn and disparagement placed upon volunteers who don’t tow the party line.

If any squadron and wing can endure people leaving and have no detrimental effect, then it is nothing like what I have seen over the years. People leave and it leaves a credible hole in what can be delivered.

As others have said, HQAC rely on people just doing things in an altruistic manner and giving their time freely to do so without complaint and putting up with their bungling style of management at Wing, Region and Corps level, because they do this for the young people who join. However there does seem to be a significant groundswell of unrest and mistrust in the way the Corps is being managed. In the last year alone people have left as they just got fed up with the Corps’ management style, who you’d never have thought would leave, unless it was in a wooden box. One of my mates who left last Christmas has said he feels more relaxed and feels his quality of life has improved.

The only place that the bucket of water line has any real meaning in the ATC is at the top of the tree, where none of them would be missed. They are pipe and slipper dodgers unable to move on into the real world.

This agreement and making it a mandatory document is at best misguided and has the potential to be very damaging.

How many AEF pilots can be replaced at the drop of hat and likewise gliding instructors? If they could, we wouldn’t have had the problems we have had in those areas.


I think the reason behind the agreement is to finally drag us into the 21st century. All other voluntary sectors have implemented a similar agreement, the MoD is playing catchup. If you read the ACF Agreement they have signed it is a lot more blunt and pointed, the ATC have taken the same agreement and softened the wording somewhat. So if everyone thinks we in the ATC have a bad agreement to sign spare a thought for the ACF … from my understanding they have had the agreement for 12 months, the majority have signed it a small minority have not and been suspended … letters are on their way to say thanks very much for they time and efforts over the years however there is the door, leave your uniform and MoD90 on the side when you leave. The ACF is still there, it’s still doing what it does.


and I am sure that they speak highly of you!



From your point about other Volunteer Organisations I looked for examples of how they did things. I found the following document very interesting

I found the first part of the recommendations quite poignant!

Recommendations for National Trust Policy & Practice

  1. Recognise emotional labour as a key leadership and management skill
    Having an ability to remain calm, make volunteers feel valued and listened to, consider their feelings and make them feel a key part of the team is often hard, relentless emotional work but it is one that pays dividends. Volunteers are a highly committed, vocal and often fearless voice in the National Trust but they are also an incredibly valuable resource for these very reasons. Management of volunteers is emotionally complex and needs to be acknowledged as such.”

So is this “21st Century” enough for you? HQRAFAC’s actions seem quite alien to the principles above!

Managing volunteers is very, very difficult. I fully understand this. But managing us only using ultimatums is not good or fair!

Your point about the ACF being in a worse situation and we are now joining them, just shows we are in a race to the bottom!

I am very aware that I volunteer in a disciplined organisation and there are many times I have to do as I am told. But just accepting poor, ill thought instructions without question bodes very badly for the future of this organisation!

We do not have enough staff in the Squadrons in my Wing. Around 6 units do not have an active commissioned Commanding Officer. Compare this to when I was first commissioned, when there was at least two applications for any vacant post, and people had to be a Flying Officer for at least 4 years before consideration for any Command Role.

This document will affect future staffing!


Hear what you are saying, however you have to accept that we are part of the military. Like it or not they fund us in a lot of ways from buildings and rent to Travel claims and VA to providing us with flying opportunities (sore subject i know but they have done and will do … struggling at the moment i agree), shooting, AT Centres, Uniforms etc etc. I also agree that the MoD does find it difficult dealing with volunteers, its not in their normal day to day workings they are used to dealing with people that do their bidding. We as the volunteers have to recognise that in some of the policies that are produced, in some cases read it and take it with a pinch of salt. The volunteers agreement just gives the MoD in military speak some kind of agreement between them and the volunteer. Are they really going to do all that they say they are going to do in the agreement without going through due process / diligence, no of course not. However they have been snowed under with volunteers raising service complaints because their feelings have been hurt in some way or another. We as an organisation have raised more service complaints than the regulars. We, in effect, have caused this agreement to be written and written in a way that the MoD are happy with, they in effect are who we report to at the top level. Will the agreement really have any effect on how we deal with our cadets, probably not, will it have any effect on the time we spend on squadron doing squadron activities, probably not, will it have any impact on your life in general, probably not. However will H&S have an effect, yes, will more nonsensical form filling have an effect, yes, will people who wear the uniform to pretend they are someone they are not have an effect, yes, will the local permanent staff who turn up and steal oxygen on a weekly basis have an effect, yes.


Ah i see it s all our fault.How dare anyone complain about being treat badly.I was at the epicentre of one of these so called piffling complaints and I can tell you now the person involved had his life turned upside down inside out and had to fight all the way to be even listened to.The sqn was badly damaged morale wise and staff left in disgust as well as the civ comm treasurer and chairman.As to the agreement itself all that has to be done is for the wording to be changed so that everyone is clear as to what is required.The way it is at the moment the HQAC mob and MOD are having their cake and eating it.
As to being part of the military thats a laugh Ive been in the military and you know where you stood there unless this lot who make it up as they go along.
I dont go in for forelock tugging and I certainly wont be signing this document until its changed or properly explained…