ACP20 Pers Form 1-19

Ive just read through this piece of rubbish.Id love to know who drafts these things.Its obviously been put together by someone with no grasp of relevant laws.I especially like this bit.

f. understand and accept that my service can be terminated by me or the RAFAC at any time.

So you can leave when you want. The ivory tower dwellers have lost the plot when they think they can dismiss people without due dilligence and adherence to a proper disciplinary process.I note there is no mention of this on the form.Just when you thought the new staff induction was paper chase central what do they do but add another form.I also note they can with hold VA if there are not the funds.This is obviously a precursor to getting rid of it altogether.
g. accept that there is no intention on the side of either party that this agreement should create an employment relationship or worker arrangement either now or at any time in the future.

Like point g as well its shorthand for lets side step the employment laws.Yet we all still get a P60 every year.In any walk of life anyone given this to sign would refuse as its totally shambolic.My question is why do we need this ?We never had it before and all of sudden here it is.

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To be fair that disclaimer probably wouldn’t be enough to get them out of an employment tribunal if they found the situation on the ground was akin to employment

It certainly wouldnt. Any lawyer (even Lionel Hutz from the Simpsons) would make short work of this shoddy rubbish.As a TU rep id love to go into bat against this lot.


Its closer to a standard volunteer agreement and whilst a bit brutal is accurate, as the definition of a volunteer means that there is no mutuality of agreement or obligation. Volunteers are not covered by a lot of the anti-discrimination legislation although the organisation has a moral / ethical duty to comply.

Unfortunately the “Ivory Tower Dwellers” as you put it haven’t lost the plot, they are just stating something that they can actually do, even though it may be unethical to do so and updating the organisations HR to modern times. The below link may be of interest.

The possibility of when this changes is if you have a permanent paid member of civil service staff with the RAFAC who also volunteers with the RAFAC. This introduces grey boundaries and can inadvertently imply employment.

Re the VA I wouldn’t be too cynical as I imagine they are just guarding against lack of funds when the new auto-claim system comes in via Bader SMS. Money is a very easy motivational tool requiring very little effort on their part so I doubt they will do away with it completly (but maybe have a flat rate come in or max rate e.g. at Fg Off).

Another thing is that the volunteers will judge the organisation on how it treats fellow organisations so if a volunteer or group are perceived to have been treated poorly (irrelevant if they have or not) then you are likely to get volunteers resigning basically resulting in a cascade failure similar to St Johns.

For better or for worse we have chosen to assist the organisations and accept all the hardships that they put us through and accept the illusions of chain of command. If you chose not to accept this then you are free to walk away and the organisation is powerless to stop you.

But good news you can no longer be given a lawful order (although “reasonable instruction” may apply) & any photos you take no longer belong to the organisation :slight_smile:

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Yes there is ACP 20 PI 202 Para 7 states . CFC officers are expected to attend for not fewer than 12 hours in any one calendar month on authorised activities related to their primary role. For officers on VGSs this is interpreted as at least 2 days in any one calendar month.

That looks like an obligation to me. If I do not do the 12 hours they can terminate my volunteering.

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Even if you do your 12 hours they can still terminate your volunteering. The get out for them is that rather than terminate your volunteering they ask you to change roles to that of a CI where there is no expectation other than adding value. When you “volunteered” for the uniform role you “volunteered” to give 12 hours a month. The choice of authorized activities is still your own and the organisation cannot dictate how you do your hows except in very broad terms.

Just because people expect you to do something does not mean there is an obligation on you to do so beyond that of honour at the most. Volunteer management is always a bit of sleight of hand and getting the best out of volunteers often involves having the volunteer creating or having a perception that is close to but not exactly reality.

The biggest danger is when the volunteers become self-aware, the illusions fail and someone says “look the emperor has no clothes” :slight_smile:

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That is stretching the logic

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Still cant see how they think they can get away with binning you without giving a valid reason which is basically what they are saying.If they “valued” the volunteers as they claim they have a strange way of showing it.
In fact that clause could open up a right can of worms.I think we ve all been in situations where theres “a clash of personalities” .The coc could now just use this to get rid of anyone they see fit without recourse to any sort of proper due process.It really stinks.

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Unless you have done something seriously and I mean seriously wrong, what on earth point is there of binning or threaten to bin any staff?
As staff you don’t get paid, get a pension, get holiday entitlement, so you lose nothing and gain your own time, so the only people that suffer are cadets.

We have to look at the fact that there isn’t a queue of people outside any HQ wanting to become staff and even if there was, the process to become staff isn’t encouraging and they’ve got over those hurdles they will take a year or so to become effective. So if they binned a member of staff with 5 or more years in and qualifications, is it proposed how those gaps are filled?

As I recall the 12 hours thing has only ever applied to uniform staff and even then the 12 hours isn’t defined as to how or where you do it. You could do 12 hours and never step foot in the squadron and even then 12 hours equates to only 4/5 parade nights or a weekend or two, which would suit me fine.

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Surely a standard volunteer agreement doesn’t involve getting paid?

To be honest, this has always been the case. Depending on how unscrupulous a senior officer is, it’s fairly easy. I’ve personally seen several non-commissioned people removed in a dubious manner in the past few years - and none had been proved to have done anything wrong.

I think the big issue with RAFAC volunteers is what we are obliged to do just to open a sqn or undertake activates.
FA qualifications
Child protection training
Health and safety audits
Produce risk assessments
routine administration
administer disciplinary action

In the reserves at the unit level most of this is done by the full time staff. My wife runs a charity she has volunteers that help out. The paid employees take all of the risk the volunteer assists. Yes without the volunteers events do not go ahead but the volunteers do not organise anything.

In the RAFAC the volunteer does everything as the unit level. Without the volunteer there would be no RAFAC. The list above is what I do to administer a sqn as a sqn cdr. If I get it wrong it will be me who will face disciplinary action and could have my unit closed down. No matter how many days pay I get, all of the above I do for free. Parade nights do not attract VA.

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Been told by our CoC that all staff have to sign and hand in or our service will be terminated.

In all of my time in the ATC I have never sign a contract of volunteering. Confidential orders, yeas but never a contract of nonemployment.

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CCF/ACF already been through this about 2 years ago.

CCF(Army) though, surely?

Yes, CCF Army.

And so it begins.

Not been given a timescale for this of course…

Yesterday :joy::joy:

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