To be fair i wish CCF and ATC were more aligned in terms of us and them… The fact a headmaster can over ride regs and get away with it really irritates me
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Apologies maybe was a bit aggressive. it gripes me that boss calls a stop to keep everyone safe but some see that it doesn’t apply to them, which to me shows they don’t care about the safety of themselves or others. So maybe best if ccf and atc stay seperate so we can’t be tainted with same disregard. Discussions are good but ultimately itscthe chain of command who determine what goes on. I will take your point on board and maybe the resultant responses will demonstrate why ccf and atc doesnt work well together for some
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The three of us and many others agree. It would help with the discontented relationship as well as making working together easier (and more likely due to friendlier attitudes).
It’s similar to working with ACF or SCC in terms of dealing with different CoC’s, rules, and admin systems so while joint events do happen it’s not the norm. Typically, I think, more common with ACF perhaps due to closer bonds/joint centres/less overlap…etc.
With CCF, regional and national level is more common. A potential issue locally as well is maybe fear of cadets jumping ship to the other in some places where it could happen.
They don’t. Different beret badge, different style of unit identifier badges. (White socks)
The issue if that, particularly for activities on school grounds, the DDH is not a RC it’s the headteacher. HQAC can say no shooting military weapons, but they can’t stop the school standing up a civilian shooting club with the same membership and using the school air rifle range.
For activities off campus then HQAC have more power as if they don’t approve it then there is no insurance.
Is it fair that a CCF in the red warning area could still parade today if they wanted to but an ATC squadron in Cyprus couldn’t? No. Is that the fault of the CCF organisation? No, it’s HQAC decision making at fault
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I’ve deleted Wellillbedamned’s last response.
Ok so what happens in this situation.
I was on a blues camp which was billed as a CCF camp with a few spaces going spare for ATC cadets.
Whose rules would apply. I suppose the fact we were on a RAF station and not any one of their schools might have some impact.
Another scenario.
I went on a radio course that was on a local schools CCF RAF premises.
Had this ruling have come in, what would happen?
Would the ATC cadets be asked to go home while the CCF cadets would be allowed to continue the training weekend?
RAFAC as an off campus activity on defence property
Possibly although it might be that it couldn’t go ahead and a formal bronze radio course, but could still go ahead as a general radio training
I’m kinda speculating so apologies but isn’t the legal responsibility for head teachers laid out in legislation. HQAC have always stated that an unauthorised activity is not indemnified by the MOD hence why it can’t go ahead.
However as CCF activities often have to be approved separately by the schools activities coordinator, the school will provide the indemnity/insurance so the activity can still happen. It’s not that CCFs “don’t follow the rules” they do, it’s just they have a different set of rules & levels of approval due to their legal nature. Schools sit under the department of education & not the ministry of defence. Also the majority of CFAVs in schools are paid professional employees and (no disrespect) not air cadet bods off the street who can be at times enthusiastic amateurs.
The trick in multi-service working is recognising & accepting that there are different approval levels for the different organisations.
So for example the Sea Cadets invite the local ATC to a joint Christmas party where there is a bouncy castle. The ATC can either refuse completely or just say okay we will do everything else but our cadets can’t use the bouncy castle.
The ATC (in particular) need to accept that other units do things differently and that’s ok. For an organisation that is meant to forward thinking and encouraging to all, it is very intolerant of any diversity of thought.
The Ford Model T cadet mindset of “we can work together provided everyone does it our way” no longer works in a modern volunteer world.
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The theory accepting and recognising differences is one thing, but actually letting these differences ‘get in the way’ and explaining it to cadets is another. Imagine that scenario and trying to explain it and make it sound credible.
When our kids were little and en mass birthday parties were a thing I remember one girl sitting out doing a laser shooting game because her mum said she couldn’t do it. Which when this was what the party was, was sad.
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I think we under estimate how savey the cadets can be - I have found explaining to them the reasons, what you have done as staff to get things through and what your alternative is, then they can be understanding.
If we are open, honest & trust them, the cadets can be pretty mature & accepting.
If quite significant that the cadets have less issues working multi service than the adults.
The only place multi-service working hits any problems is national management levels, unit staff would be quite happy to work together, but different admin systems and getting different management structures to align make it too difficult.
Kids may be understanding but being told you can’t do something when others can is never easy to understand, when the reasoning is vague.
I’ve been in favour of a ‘purple’ management system for years to get around these problems, but IMO protectionism at Cranwell has blocked this.
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Ccf and atc appear to run in parallel but with a common commandant, maybe give rhq more control via TAAs. We have a ccf unit and 2 atc sqns within 5 mile radius, we tried working with ccf which was positive and local level but headmaster was confused where liabilities were if things didn’t go well so activity stopped
Do you mean TSA’s? - Training Safety Advisor
So you’ve had one bad headteacher. It happens and is the biggest weakness in the CCF. Don’t let that cloud your judgment of the whole organisation
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But this is where having as I said a ‘purple’ arrangement wrt top level management that would hopefully mean an end to everyone doing the same things but slightly differently. So at unit level we could just do things and pool/share staff as and when. But this would be a grown up approach, which I’m not convinced senior management are or ever will be ready for this. Christ knows how the Army, RN & RAF manage when on joint operations.
In my old job we had 3 mergers over the years and each one when they happened brought difficulties as we got used to working together, but we overcame these as to not do so would have meant profit related bonuses being reduced or lost and potentially no job. We also worked collaboratively with other firms, which was interesting. The school I work for now became part of a MAT 4 years ago (against its own wishes) and it seems to still be working through the admin changes.
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Now there’s an interesting idea.
Why not have a complete restructure so each towns cadet force is a effectively like a CCF so you have each of the community cadet units parade but have a single officer oversee all three rather than a district/company/sector commander.
Allows greater sharing of resources, harmonies training & allows adults to flit between.
Bands could be tri-service, minibus drivers could be swapped between & there is a local single point of contact for all three cadet forces. Admitted the CCFs would probably still be slightly separate due to the legal nature of schools but it would make it easier for them to interact.
You’re looking at a 25year plan to make it come about but it could happen…maybe?
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Just as a side 30years or so ago there use to be Commandant of the ATC as a 1star but CCFs came under 2Star AVM who was AOC Aircadets. This was then merged so effectively commandant Air Cadets wears two different hats one as Commandant ATC and the other as AO-RAFAC.
So you are right to say that the CCF(RAF) run in parallel (I.e. alongside but not interacting) as effectively they do, not intersecting officially until AOC 22 Grp but intersecting de facto at Commandant Air Cadets.
OC RAFAC is commandant of ATC and CCF hence he feels he has the right to command both parts. The main issue are regs are poorly written and open to interpretation.
No, the Air Commodore RAFAC is the Commandant of the CCF(RAF) he is NOT the commandant of the CCF.
You do realise that the CCF is more than just the air cadet portion right?
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Feels or is?
Feels is an emotional term, “is” a matter of established fact & record.
However if legislation is that it is the heads of school & school governor boards that have final say then his feelings are irrelevant as the law would rule against him. In CCFs I have known army HQ to over rule the RAFAC on matters. This is why badges for the ccf(raf) were different for so long as their dress regulations for badges was in a JSP which over rules an AP.
However as the commandant is new & not personally known to me I would not second guess his ‘feelings’ and only go by what he stated & what he has done.
In a volunteer organisation where no one can give a lawful order (I.e. an order backed by legislation) the commandant only has influence. He has greater influence over the ATC than the CCF but more than one commandant has had their plans scuppered by the “Regional Commandants” (the group captain mafia one Wng Cdr Tg called them”) and according, rumours/gossip one was forced out.
It is the collective illusion that we all buy into & whilst the magic & mysticism is there we all go along with. However should the volunteers become self aware it’s a sudden case of “the emperor has no clothes” and then the method of organisation becomes one of negotiation rather than authoritarian instruction.