That’s probably expecting a little much around these parts.
Especially when double standards are employed…
Whilst trying to remain constructive - if you were on RWO or WWO duties should you not take the unit badge off ? Especially to remain impartial
I think most units would like their own badge ( including wings and regions) - more info please !
Now we just need to sort the rules about green embroidered rank slides ! For use on fieldcraft, skill at arms training and ranges (due to issues with the pins)
On a separate note does anyone know where we order the official air cadet plastic name badges for blues (similar to the RAF recruiters)
I was there with my Sqn on SQN duty…
[quote=“wokkaman” post=20485]
we are trying to get a non official one for ACO only (listing upto 960+ badges in ap1358c would be a bit much) as the official (as in under old rules restricted) one has information in it 
I will happily get it into the next ver of 1358c… On leave on Friday but will sort upon my return[/quote]
But there would never have been any reason to list 960 badges. While I’m content to believe that the DPC has possibly approved 960 badges for members of the RAF to wear. There aren’t in existence 960 badges which the ATC are approved to wear. As far as the corps is concerned the only ones authorised are in Para 0430. Or are you saying that if it’s on that list we can all wear it?
Alternatively, there aren’t 960 squadron badges in existence as the vast majority of units don’t even on know they can have them. (I still don’t believe that they can or even could apply. This sounds like a grandfather rights carry-over which won’t be repeated.)
This is why I think you’re misapplying the regs. If ATF have seen that badge as you say it would have taken less than 5 minutes for them to have taken a picture of it and include it in the list in 0430 in the next update.
[quote=“Baldrick” post=20494][quote=“wokkaman” post=20485]
we are trying to get a non official one for ACO only (listing upto 960+ badges in ap1358c would be a bit much) as the official (as in under old rules restricted) one has information in it
I will happily get it into the next ver of 1358c… On leave on Friday but will sort upon my return[/quote]
But there would never have been any reason to list 960 badges. While I’m content to believe that the DPC has possibly approved 960 badges for members of the RAF to wear. There aren’t in existence 960 badges which the ATC are approved to wear. As far as the corps is concerned the only ones authorised are in Para 0430. Or are you saying that if it’s on that list we can all wear it?
Alternatively, there aren’t 960 squadron badges in existence as the vast majority of units don’t even on know they can have them. (I still don’t believe that they can or even could apply. This sounds like a grandfather rights carry-over which won’t be repeated.)
This is why I think you’re misapplying the regs. If ATF have seen that badge as you say it would have taken less than 5 minutes for them to have taken a picture of it and include it in the list in 0430 in the next update.[/quote] what I am saying is if every Sqn wants a badge and you say it must appear in AP1358c then that could be a lot of badges, what the reg say is satt etc, etc AND those approved by DPC - i.e. on their register. What I am saying is that we are trying to get an ACO register onto share point so people can “check” if that badge is approved.
As I imagine it is not restricted surely a quick freedom of information request will help solve this particular issue.
Dress regs do seem to be a breeding ground for pedantry & one up-man-ship. Whilst I sympathise with Wokkaman’s position surely you would have a stock email along the lines of "thank you for your comment. Dress regs for air cadets are laid out in AP 1358c but the local commander can vary in changing conditions if the cadets’ welfare is affected or their safety is at risk. We’ll look into this further "
The biggest problem is one that cannot be changed - it’s a volunteer organisation training young people. Trying to control that is like herding cats. Practicality & what is executed on the ground will always trump what is laid down in any manual.
In the photo above someone took a decision in the interests of the welfare of their cadets - we shouldn’t be second guessing that decision as that is likly to lead to more accidents in the future (I notice both the cadets above are near a cliff - imagine if one fainted & fell off; then everyone would be going why didn’t the officer in charge tell then to take their ties off!)
The most junior pilot officer still outranks the CACWO or region WO. They are allowed to make the decision to go against regs (remember that time VR(T)? When we were allowed to maked decisions 
). The only caveat is that they must be able to justify that decision up the chain of command (not down it!)
If people are going to moan about the exceptions that test the rule then the solution in this example is simple. All cadets are issued short sleeve wedgewoods - if it’s cold they wear jumper & tie, warm weather it is open neck.
Perhaps this should have originally been posted in a GMG rather than as a uniform topic.
Ahhhh yes I remember it well, but many will have only heard of these times in bar reminisences.
As for justifying, I remember when no one gave a monkey’s, unless someone was physically harmed and you didn’t manage the situation locally. As the Sqn Cdr you ran your own ship and were allowed to get on with it.
Oddly this was the situation for largest part of our 76 (inc ADCC) years and the Corps was successful, God knows how we and our forebears managed that.
Before we get threads like this, those posting need to bear the immediately above in mind, unless they want to be regarded as jobsworths. Sorry Wokkaman but this doesn’t shine a good light on you or those of the same ilk, even if you are doing what you regard as your jobs.
Hmmm only one Outrage Bus and so many destinations!
Well which destination do we put on it?
[ol]
[li]“They have a Sqn Badge on their MTP – with ATF authority – clearly favoritism”[/li]
[li]“Why haven’t we got a badge – with or without Authority?”[/li]
[li]“Wedgewood shirts have rights too”[/li]
[li]“Dressing up is >= the Cadet Experience”[/li]
[li]“The importance of doing as I say and not as I do - via - ‘How I learned to love the Facepalm’ ”[/li]
[li]“At least it isn’t an Ice Bucket Challenge - crack on”[/li]
First Paraded and ready to go…
[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=20500]
As for justifying, I remember when no one gave a monkey’s, unless someone was physically harmed and you didn’t manage the situation locally. As the Sqn Cdr you ran your own ship and were allowed to get on with it.
Oddly this was the situation for largest part of our 76 (inc ADCC) years and the Corps was successful, God knows how we and our forebears managed that. [/quote]
It was called a bit of common sense and accepting the fact that others are authorised to make decisions. People did give a monkey’s but thought about things first and the decision processes being made rather than suddenly jump in all guns blazing without the slightest clue of what the exact situation was and expecting every minute decision explained to them, even if they weren’t entitled to know. (I do have sympathy for those stuck in the unenviable position of being expect to enforce such second guessing even if it’s plain to everyone why an action was taken - damned if you do, damned if you don’t!)
It reminds me of the quote that could equally apply to cadet world at times which stated that: -
“The politics of the university are so intense because the stakes are so low”
Yes people gave a monkeys BUT it had to be serious.
IMO uniform discretions were not and are not important in the grand scheme. We get reminders about CIs in DPM and other uniform “issues” around cadets on regular basis from our WWO.
The problem is when looked at with a broad view of the organisation there are far more important things affecting us and how/what we do in a real and tangible way, than cadets or staff wearing/not wearing/how they wear uniform. This pendantic attention to unimpotant minutae is mind-numblingly tedious.
The single biggest problem we have in society, not just the ATC, is the internet and more so with the advent of broadband and wider use of smartphones/tablets etc. Articles for papers that are invariably online, photos/scans sent to mates and social sites where a photo or comment is worldwide in less than a blink of the eye and there is always someone looking and picking up on it. As a result the tiny minds get something to make something of.
IF the photo of these cadets had been taken just 10 years ago and it got into the papers, someone might have picked up on it online and 15+ years ago it unless it made a national, would have gone largely unseen outside the local area. Hence life was a much more sane experience as we had for the previous 60 odd years. I’m into genealogy and recently I’ve been researching news articles and it is so refreshing to see things that happened being reported as NEWS days or weeks after they happened, compared to today’s reporting seconds after something was said or done.
There is always the potential that if people are hyper critical of every little thing that isn’t quite right, people will stop photographing things and publicising the organisation, just for an easier life.
They may not be life or death matters but they are every bit as important as the many other aspects of operating within the organisation.
If you consider that calling everybody on the squadron by their first names or not bothering with that silly saluting nonsense is acceptable then by all means take a slapdash approach to the uniform. If instead you acknowledge that all these things are part of the “military” package which comes with being part of an MOD-sponsored cadet force then it is best to make a bit of effort and do things in a military way; that means accepting that there are dos and don’ts associated with the clothes we wear.
It isn’t as if we are asking people to sacrifice their firstborn here - it is ridiculously easy to comply with the vast majority of the dress rules and there are also acceptable justifications for not quite managing to do so if that turns out to be absolutely necessary.
Giving cadets GPJs, SD caps or sashes is not absolutely necessary, but having your new cadets in No3 dress more than usual may be when the supply chain fails us. Having cadets in shirt and tie for any public engagement is not absolutely necessary, but if the temperature after a ceremonial event becomes unbearable then ties off may be a reasonable response.
Getting uniform right most of the time should be an easy win. Do it.
Then we can focus on trying to get sensible rules in place for shooting and flying, questioning why I need land clearance for DofE expeds in Scotland, trying to get HQAC to produce a F3822A that doesn’t look like it has been planned on a napkin, getting a MT system which isn’t oppressive, trying not to require signed consent forms for anything that takes place outwith the unit boundary, having decent training regimes for adult staff or even drifting back to a level of trust so we don’t need top jump through as many hoops to carry out activities.
I general yes but it’s the mind numbing pedantic minutae that photograhs of cadets and staff in uniform are picked over, when they are not doing anyone an harm, that gets my goat. This doesn’t mean people aren’t proud of their uniform and how they act in it. There is a bit of me that feels many SNCOs focus on this sort of thing as they feel they aren’t doing what this organisation thinks they should as SNCOs. When they could better spend their time looking at other things.
The things listed in the last paragraph are extremely important to this organisation, yet we just roll over to get our tummy’s tickled when civil servants put barriers in our way. Our COs meetings at Wing and Sector level get quite vocal about these, because we aren’t happy. In 18 years as a Sqn Cdr the only thing about uniform that gets raised is supply problems. Even when I was WO 20 odd years ago, uniform wearing and how it was worn wasn’t that high on the agenda. Maybe if we’d had the internet things might have been different.
Is the pedantic nature of picking up on so called uniform problems a sign of resignation that we can’t affect anything else, so people go for the path of least resistance?
[quote=“wokkaman” post=20495][quote=“Baldrick” post=20494][quote=“wokkaman” post=20485]
we are trying to get a non official one for ACO only (listing upto 960+ badges in ap1358c would be a bit much) as the official (as in under old rules restricted) one has information in it
I will happily get it into the next ver of 1358c… On leave on Friday but will sort upon my return[/quote]
But there would never have been any reason to list 960 badges. While I’m content to believe that the DPC has possibly approved 960 badges for members of the RAF to wear. There aren’t in existence 960 badges which the ATC are approved to wear. As far as the corps is concerned the only ones authorised are in Para 0430. Or are you saying that if it’s on that list we can all wear it?
Alternatively, there aren’t 960 squadron badges in existence as the vast majority of units don’t even on know they can have them. (I still don’t believe that they can or even could apply. This sounds like a grandfather rights carry-over which won’t be repeated.)
This is why I think you’re misapplying the regs. If ATF have seen that badge as you say it would have taken less than 5 minutes for them to have taken a picture of it and include it in the list in 0430 in the next update.[/quote] what I am saying is if every Sqn wants a badge and you say it must appear in AP1358c then that could be a lot of badges, what the reg say is satt etc, etc AND those approved by DPC - i.e. on their register. What I am saying is that we are trying to get an ACO register onto share point so people can “check” if that badge is approved.[/quote]
I disagree, I would say that the AP says that the DPC may authorise badges. And the list of those badges authorised for wear by the ACO is listed in 0430. So your badge should appear in AP1358C (or, if it gets silly size wise an annex to the AP) Otherwise how on earth can we check it? The whole point of thr AP was to consolidate the myriad of uniform wearing regs into one place. (Remember the good old days when we used to have to use the ACAI in 20b, the staff cadet manuals and SNCO Course ACP and various random instructions in routine orders? It was chaos.)
The wider point of all of this is this. Unless the whole ACO sings off one single hymn sheet, we will have the chaos we used to have. Where contradictory regulations allowed escape routes for all sorts of things. The way that consistency is achieved is by EVERYONE knowing exactly what the regulations are. From the junior cadets to the wing commanders, so that all levels and ranks can check and balance eachother. This is a big aim, but you have to admit that the amount of inconsistency in the uniformity of the ATC has improved greatly since the AP came out. (Look how many less arguments there are on here nowadays about little things like do brassards go inside or outside rolled up sleeves.)
What you’re telling us now is that the great aim is a lie. That there are hidden lists of badges which people can wear, and there is no way that the vast majority of the organisation can perform the necessary checks and balances to ensure uniformity, and that we should take your word for it as you’re the man in the know. (among others to be fair.)
The AP exists to ensure that knowledge is no longer a power only for the select few. It exists to define as well as to protect.
Protect yourself, get your badge added to the AP (Or get an annex made and put on Ulitlearn with it.
Hence getting the register sorted for the ACO
On my Sqn we have two Adult Sgt’s… Myself and one other I have to admit I am one for sticking to the AP like glue unless of course a cadets health is at risk. However the othe Sgt keeps taking her tie off and rolling up her sleeves both on and off the sqn and no matter how much I mention it she still keeps doing it… She is a rather large lady and she seems to overheat more than the rest of us but in my mind its no excuse…
If she is an adult Sgt then she should of been issued Short Sleeve shirts, so no excuse whatsoever…
and if she hasn’t?
i have no idea whatsoever of the veracity of this situation, but does it not strike you as odd that someone who has short-sleeved shirts designed to be worn sans tie would instead wear a long-sleeved shirt, then take her tie off and roll her sleeves up?
and if she hasn’t?
i have no idea whatsoever of the veracity of this situation, but does it not strike you as odd that someone who has short-sleeved shirts designed to be worn sans tie would instead wear a long-sleeved shirt, then take her tie off and roll her sleeves up?[/quote]
Yeap odd, still begs the question why she does not have them??
woefull supply chain?
assuming this is the case, and not somebody just being deeply odd for the sake of it, would it not then be reasonable for Sgt X to wear the LS shirt as if it were a SS shirt in the circumstances where wearing a SS shirt would be appropriate?