Although, like most of us, I only know what has occurred with Zinggy through this forum, I’m actually really angry and also very sad that it’s effectively come to him resigning from the Sqn and still nobody in authority has the guts yet to get a grip of this utter prat.
Knowing what she did when a WO was a bag of spanners on a parade, I wonder what the Commandant would make of this?
Maybe time to make her aware?
Zinngy - when you say ‘relevant people’ do you mean WSO’s or WExO?
i fear you’re harking back to a former life, SNCO’s in the ACO don’t have the same ‘cultural’ authority over junior officers that they do in regular life - and even then it was often more in the mind of SNCO’s than in reality, the JO knew that as long as he was ‘in’ with his OC and CO, and that he was polite to the SNCO, the SNCO was on a hiding to nothing.
in regular service the cultural authority of the SNCO over the JO is based on the JO not knowing his ■■■■ from his elbow while the SNCO was a 16+ year bloke, in the ACO the two might have similar length of service, so that differentiation just isn’t there. the ACO SNCO might be consulted by the JO as the subject matter expert, but i’m afraid that if you think the WWO or other SNCO has the kind of career-ending cultural authority over JO’s that some Regiments/Establishments give their SNCO’s over shiny new 2Lt’s, then i’m afraid you’re in for an unpleasent surprise…
Zingy - sorry, but its not a great surprise - out of control, ‘its my train set’ village Napoleons don’t, as a rule, take dissent and opposition well. in one way its good because now you’re unit-less the Wing may have less ability to brush it all under the carpet, on the other hand i’m not sure other OC’s are going to welcome you with open arms: they may well think this bloke is a complete throbber, but that doesn’t mean they fancy having their own foibles broadcast to the world.
personally, at this stage, i’d be very tempted to talk to CAC about it, i - sadly - don’t think you much to lose, and its probably the most effective way of getting this OC binned.
The email I sent was sent to the WWO, WSO and WExO I have had a reply this morning from the WExo and to be fair looks like he is spitting feathers over this and has said he dosent want to lose me from the ACO so looks like some positve news there
[quote=“Racing Stick” post=13038]
I think a few of us have had sheltered upbringings and perhaps don’t realise the true impact a WO can have.[/quote]
Dude, you need to realise that as an SNCO in this organisation, you are most definately the 2nd class citizen. None of your commissioned betters really take Adult SNCOs seriously! As is witnessed by many of the comments on this and other threads.
You ain’t in Kansas anymore dorothy!
[quote=“sirvicalsmeer” post=13045][quote=“Racing Stick” post=13038]
I think a few of us have had sheltered upbringings and perhaps don’t realise the true impact a WO can have.[/quote]
Dude, you need to realise that as an SNCO in this organisation, you are most definately the 2nd class citizen. None of your commissioned betters really take Adult SNCOs seriously! As is witnessed by many of the comments on this and other threads.
You ain’t in Kansas anymore dorothy![/quote]
When are people going to realize we are not in the RAF!
Regardless of rank we are all part of a team that facilitates making sure cadets receive a rounded exsperiance in a safe and structured environment .
Every member of staff has a duty of care to make sure that cadets and the integrity of corp is protected.
We are all adults that volunteer make a difference, rank shouldn’t come into it when cadets are out of sight.
I didn’t get involved to suck upto some weeknight warrior. Some people are like cancer in this organisation, and they need to be cut out.
[quote=“lead balloon” post=13046][quote=“sirvicalsmeer” post=13045][quote=“Racing Stick” post=13038]
I think a few of us have had sheltered upbringings and perhaps don’t realise the true impact a WO can have.[/quote]
Dude, you need to realise that as an SNCO in this organisation, you are most definately the 2nd class citizen. None of your commissioned betters really take Adult SNCOs seriously! As is witnessed by many of the comments on this and other threads.
You ain’t in Kansas anymore dorothy![/quote]
When are people going to realize we are not in the RAF!
Regardless of rank we are all part of a team that facilitates making sure cadets receive a rounded exsperiance in a safe and structured environment .
Every member of staff has a duty of care to make sure that cadets and the integrity of corp is protected.
We are all adults that volunteer make a difference, rank shouldn’t come into it when cadets are out of sight.
I didn’t get involved to suck upto some weeknight warrior. Some people are like cancer in this organisation, and they need to be cut out.[/quote]
Agree with all you said apart from the first sentence.
Whilst nobody should kid themselves that any member of the ACO is going to the frontline anytime soon, we are most certainly part of the RAF and more importantly, the RAF wants us to be more of a part of it going forward.
Well I hope the WExO uses these spare Feathers to Tar and Feather this prat of a CO!
Hope you get sent to a decent Sqn soon chap.
In this case I’d also say that it’s not a matter for the WWO to worry about.
This is far more clearly a Wing HQ matter.
The comments regarding the SNCO/WO - Officer relationship make for a good discussion and are perhaps worthy of a separate topic. I may start one.
[quote=“zinggy” post=12657]Good afternoon!!
I am in need of some help a SNCO ATC on my sqn has decided that her daughter is going to be in uniform for rememberance Sunday and she will be playing the last post. Now I wouldn’t normally have an issue with this but this girl is only 12 and not a cadet!! The SNCO thinks its no problem what so ever and to make it worse when I spoke to the CO about it he just said let her get on with it
As far as I can see this is wrong and shouldn’t be allowed the question is what can or should I do about it??[/quote]
Partly off topic but I get quite irritated with people disregarding the role of SNCOs and Functional Authority.
The WWO, with regard to a rank structure, might not be in the CoC but does sit in the CoC when it comes to Functional Authority.
He is given the position to be the arbiter of good taste when it comes to Drill, Dress and Discipline. Yes he many not be Senior in rank to the OC but when it come to these issues, if the CO does not follow his direction, then it should be considered as contravening a direct order. It is as simple as that.
He is the SME in these areas. He can pick up any person in the CoC in the right manner and any Wg Cdr should back him as if it were an order.
[/quote]
Whilst we shouldn’t be letting the CO off scott free, it appears in this instance that its more the SNCOs causing problems and having the issues than the CO believing his own Ego. If you’ve got an inexperienced and weak CO placed with an egotistical and strong willed SNCO then the CO is going to have difficultly controlling them. You can imagine the SNCOs telling the CO that “its okay sir but you don’t need to worry about it as its a drill matter and Officers don’t get involved with drill”.
WO & SNCOs should be there to warn and advise but it always remains to the officer to make the decision, even if its a drill matter. Traditional the Adjutant has the authority for discipline on a Sqn (probably by the setting of the policies) with the SWO enforcing it and the Adjutant is normally an Officer.
SNCOs (& CIs) are important part of the organisation but they have a different level of responsibility. In any hierarchal system you are not going to always agree with the decisions made by those above, but telling superiors they shouldn’t get involved is only going to annoy them or discourage them for challenging their subordinates when things aren’t safe.
The Crux of this matter is that of the CO not standing up to the SNCO (“just let her get on with it” = I don’t want to deal with this hassle). I imagine that the CO is currently wanting to just hide under a blanket as he has two SNCOs arguing that its okay (& probably cause him regular problems) balanced out by one SNCO that he feels confident in challenging arguing for what is strictly correct. Does the CO go ‘via the book’ and upset the local RBL & one of his SNCOs who is involved in the parade organisation or does he upset the other SNCO who doesn’t normally cause him any problems?
Even if the CO is changed, any new CO will have to deal with the situation of the SNCO with the daughter. With the Shortage of Officers what’s the possibility that this could be a young officer who has gone straight from CWO?
Is the CO not guilty of anything? Of course not, they’re in command, final responsibility rests with him and he has to demonstrate that he has exercised proper managerial control over his staff. However the SNCO with the daughter should have known better and shouldn’t have even created the situation in the first place unless there are really large mitigating circumstances.
Posts on this thread, forum and forum of old all bear witness to the truth of my statement. As usual a vocal few spoil things for the minority.
So, you’ll be resigning your commission, if you have one, or your ATC SNCO/WO appointment?
If these or even other people were of a mind in a few minutes on the internet and or surplus shop they could have a full ATC uniform on their doorstep within a few days and stand their children on the parade. The only thing the might be missing is a sqn number, but I’m sure they could blag one if they wanted to.
These could be any age from 10/11 and you know what, no one would bat an eyelid, other than maybe someone from the ATC, if they saw them, but even then probably wouldn’t say anything as they wouldn’t recognise them. What would be the tack if someone saw something like this? Report them? What for exactly? Impersonating an Air Cadet, I’ve seen plenty of legitimate youngsters do that over the years.
GHE2, you’re right in what you say, but the issue here is more than what you cover. Firstly the actual wearing of an ATC uniform is no big shakes and sure, you can buy most of it on line as you say and wear it as you wish, however, this SNCO seems to be DELIBERATELY trying to pass their offspring off as an ATC cadet and that’s an issue in itself, that one of our staff is knowingly (I guess unless she’s stupid) flouting the rules! Secondly, the Sqn Cdr has allowed himself to be persuaded that this is ok without, seemingly, questioning his SNCO and lastly, having been made aware of the legitimate concerns of one of his staff and been told that what he’s doing is not permitted, has deliberately chosen to kiss off Zinggy’s concerns! Now, the likelihood is that nothing untoward will happen on this parade on Sunday, but what if this SNCOs child gets hit by a car after the parade - possible - what happens then?
If there was anything to happen to said younsgter before, during or after the parade, nothing would happen. They are not a cadet, just a kid in “fancy dress” (for want of a phrase), end of. If somehow it found its way up the chain, that the OC “loaned” the uniform, that’s a problem for the CoC and OC to bat through.
I’ve been to several “re-enactment” shows and I doubt if any of the participants have any grounds to seek reparation if they got hurt, from the body they look to represent.
If people were able to seek reparation for injuries when in fancy dress, there are a number of well known brands that would not be selling outfits.
You’re making a massive assumption that should anything go wrong, this child would be seen by HQAC as simply wearing fancy dress; I guarantee that would not be the case. OK, so even if they do not actually parade with the Sqn and said child performs on its own, it is still wearing ATC uniform when other cadets are present. It is also the offspring of a Sqn staff member, there are too many links with the Corps to make it just fancy dress.
If there is an incident with this child, I would not like to be on the receiving end of, or even involved in, the inquiry that would ensue; and for right or wrong, fancy dress or otherwise, I think we know that there would without doubt be one.
I don’t know how or why if there was an incident it would end up at Cranwell? If it ended up at Cranwell we’d get a string of emails no doubt.
When we have cadets pass out on parades any paperwork is given to us, if there is any. Mostly they are sat down with blanket around them and passed back to mum and dad. As in this case the kiddie in question is not a cadet, you wouldn’t do anything, as it us who raise as and when required a 492.
For it to go any higher, would need a catastrophic incident such as Enniskillen where things get out of a local context. But then the sort of thing we are talking about, would pale into insignificance and of lesser concern.
This whole thing is bizzare and I know that truth is stranger than fiction, but still it is all very, very odd. If I saw it on TV I wouldn’t believe it. I’ve known the most obsessed parents in the Corps but never, ever heard of this sort of thing.
[quote=“sirvicalsmeer” post=13045][quote=“Racing Stick” post=13038]
I think a few of us have had sheltered upbringings and perhaps don’t realise the true impact a WO can have.[/quote]
Dude, you need to realise that as an SNCO in this organisation, you are most definately the 2nd class citizen. None of your commissioned betters really take Adult SNCOs seriously! As is witnessed by many of the comments on this and other threads.
You ain’t in Kansas anymore dorothy![/quote]
You know, I’ve heard a load of rubbish on some of the threads on the forum. But none which have afforded such contempt as this.
I think it’s very offensive to consider SNCO’s as 2nd class citizens. Utter claptrap!! My Wing’s SNCO’s are highly respected and greatly appreciated. Indeed, our OC WIng is never shy on passing on his thanks to us. I know my CO and the Officers I have direct contact with take our endeavours extremely serious.
I’m amazed you can even comment so. Not only does it offend us SNCO’s but also many of the Officer’s on here too!! The quote above is incomparably ignorant and perhaps is only founded because of your own personal actions.
I, and I think many others, would prefer not to be tarnished so. I hope you’re proud of such comments.
[quote=“Racing Stick” post=13118][quote=“sirvicalsmeer” post=13045][quote=“Racing Stick” post=13038]
I think a few of us have had sheltered upbringings and perhaps don’t realise the true impact a WO can have.[/quote]
Dude, you need to realise that as an SNCO in this organisation, you are most definately the 2nd class citizen. None of your commissioned betters really take Adult SNCOs seriously! As is witnessed by many of the comments on this and other threads.
You ain’t in Kansas anymore dorothy![/quote]
You know, I’ve heard a load of rubbish on some of the threads on the forum. But none which have afforded such contempt as this.
I think it’s very offensive to consider SNCO’s as 2nd class citizens. Utter claptrap!! My Wing’s SNCO’s are highly respected and greatly appreciated. Indeed, our OC WIng is never shy on passing on his thanks to us. I know my CO and the Officers I have direct contact with take our endeavours extremely serious.
I’m amazed you can even comment so. Not only does it offend us SNCO’s but also many of the Officer’s on here too!! The quote above is incomparably ignorant and perhaps is only founded because of your own personal actions.
I, and I think many others, would prefer not to be tarnished so. I hope you’re proud of such comments.[/quote]
Fella, I never said I believed that or thought that ACO SNCOs are 2nd class citizens. What I said was that in the ACO SNCOs are viewed as 2nd class citizens/poor relations to the VRT by a signifigant number of VRT officers. Not all I hasten to add.