This isn’t a matter for the WWO. They don’t have authoritity over OCs. WSO or WHQ without delay regardless of your rank.
The squadron commander is making a big mistake to let this happen.
Technically accurate. However, the WWO is meant to be the fount of all knowledge for ceremonial, etc, & could be a good way of keeping the matter low key.
However, I am staggered that an OC Sqn has the temerity to act in such a way. The clock is ticking here & the potential for a catastrophic outcome is increasing rapidly. Personally, if nothing results today from any contact with the WWO, I would (without hesitation) contact Wg - first thing tomorrow. The only proviso is that I would advise the OC of my planned course of action, to give him the (very faint) chance of recovering the situation.
Technically accurate. However, the WWO is meant to be the fount of all knowledge for ceremonial, etc, & could be a good way of keeping the matter low key.
However, I am staggered that an OC Sqn has the temerity to act in such a way. The clock is ticking here & the potential for a catastrophic outcome is increasing rapidly. Personally, if nothing results today from any contact with the WWO, I would (without hesitation) contact Wg - first thing tomorrow. The only proviso is that I would advise the OC of my planned course of action, to give him the (very faint) chance of recovering the situation.[/quote]
This is NOT a ceremonial issue. It’s a basic organisation rule which is being flouted and could result in significant consequences.
Maybe “ceremonial” was the wrong word. The gist was that the WWO would be able to place “words of advice” that should not be ignored - & it might keep things from going higher up up the tree…
Just explain why words of advice from a WWO are more likely to be heeded than words of advice from this persons own staff? If you are prepared to ignore one, the other isn’t really going to shake you.
At the very least it would be acknowledgement that this is not simply a parochial matter but that the eyes of those above are watching.
I’d hope that by bringing the WWO into play, OC Wing would be brought along to confirm the inappropriateness of the actions from a management perspective. Perhaps the WWO would be available to inspect the individual beforehand to ensure they meet the standards required for public parade in RAF uniform.
This makes me laugh. Wing Warrant Officers are not in the management chain of OCs. This is what WSOs are supposed to do. They also feed into The wing commander. They can and should instruct the OC not to carry out this activity. Failure to follow an order is more serious that failing to follow advice.
True however wouldnt it be better for me to go up the Chain of Command instead of going right to the top??
Yes - but your first point of call in the CoC should be your WSO.
Generally pictures are taken at Rememberance parades by Parades, so I can’t see somebody looking like a ‘tool’ by doing so, if done sensibly.
When it comes to witnesses, I’ve found that people want an easy life and don’t want to get involved - so a picture negates the need for them.
Failing that (given timescale and availability), the WingExo is the ideal person to grip this.
In any instance, it certainly shouldn’t go any higher (i.e. HQAC) without going through the CoC.
There are always several ways to skin a cat.
Informal route -> WWO = outside the formal chain of command but input from the senior SNCO might be enough to make the OC Sqn come to his senses. Often worked very well in the Services, & negated the need for embarrassing consequences on many occasions… Possible (grudging) gratitude from the guilty party as the floodgates releasing the brown stuff don’t get opened.
Formal route -> straight to Wg = will probably generate a formal investigation (this would be necessary to substantiate the claims) = spotlight on everyone + potential for formal warning (or worse). This might be unpalatable but could be the only way to resolve the problem.
Partly off topic but I get quite irritated with people disregarding the role of SNCOs and Functional Authority.
The WWO, with regard to a rank structure, might not be in the CoC but does sit in the CoC when it comes to Functional Authority.
He is given the position to be the arbiter of good taste when it comes to Drill, Dress and Discipline. Yes he many not be Senior in rank to the OC but when it come to these issues, if the CO does not follow his direction, then it should be considered as contravening a direct order. It is as simple as that.
He is the SME in these areas. He can pick up any person in the CoC in the right manner and any Wg Cdr should back him as if it were an order.
The concept of functional authority seems to have a lack of recognition in the ATC. In military terms, put a SLt (Flg Off) as the Navigator of a Frigate, they has Functional Authority over all of the Officers of the Watch (OOW). Most of them will be Lt (Flt Lt). What the Sub Lt says goes when it comes to the Navigator/OOW relationship. There are many examples of this.
This, as far as I am concerned, is relevant to the above situation and the WWO is the best route. Admittedly not the only route
Rant over… return to discussion
Not really though, firstly a WO does not “give orders” direct or otherwise to Officers.
WOs give guidance to officers. Now it would not be unreasonable for said WWO to phone/email the OC and say “sir, x has raised this issue and asked for a little guidance, I’d advise that…” But the thought of a WO phoning and saying “Sir, thou shalt” is simply wrong.
Now the officer will clearly be a prat for not following said guidance, but its not the same as a Nav/OOW or Pilot/Air Loadie relationship (i.e. SME as you say). In any event, should Nav/Pilot/Whoever holds the hotseat choose to ignore a SME, then I’m pretty sure they can do so, but on their head be it.
Also this isnt a drill & ceremonial issue. I’d like to think its a common sense issue… but common sense seems rare these days.
However… I cant help but think what in reality is such a trivial issue is likely to blow up out of all proportion and casue a bad taste in the mouth whatever happens!
And no, I don’t have an easy solution, other than someone with clout speaking to the OC and knocking some sense into them.
I am siding with the “not really within the WWO’s remit” camp here.
While it is a ceremonial event, the root problem is one of squadron staff stepping outside their remit and that is something the direct CoC needs to address.
I’d wager that this chap does has done this before, ie, bucked the system and got away with it (comment Zinggy?). Someone has mentioned earlier, these are exactly the sort of people who give the Corps a bad name and are the reason the decent majority of people get tarred with the ‘amateurish’ brush. They are oxygen thieves and need to be culled for the good of the organisation.
I appreciate the statements that the WWO should have a word and as Perry says, most of us on the commissioned side when given ‘advice’ by a WO, properly delivered, would probably heed it, but given this clown’s apparent attitude, that’s hardly likely to happen. He needs to be ordered by his CoC that he is not to do this, it’s that simple. Refusal to do so = disciplinary action. But that takes a bit of moral courage.
i’m with Incy on this - not only is time a limiting factor in deciding who can effectively resolve the situation (and in this situation the WWO is realistically going to talk to OC Wing anyway), this isn’t a WWO matter, its a ‘people doing serious stuff well outside their authority and in direct contravention of written orders’ matter.
an OC asking his female staff to wear stockings instead of tights is technically a dress issue, but that’s not really the problem…
I hope you get this sorted Zinggy.
I truly cannot understand where some of these comments are coming from regarding whether a WWO should or should not be able to tell a junior officer; which is what a FLt Lt is, what is to happen. Can any of you who served imagine a SWO, RSM or WO MAA being in a position where he can’t hairdry an officer? No, nor can I!
I think a few of us have had sheltered upbringings and perhaps don’t realise the true impact a WO can have.
I sent formal emails to the relevent people yesterday but today I was called into the CO’s office and he basicly had a right go at me, said its nothing to do with me and if I didnt like it theres the door so I used said door and wont be returning its now up to Wing to sort out but sadly without me.