And that is fine as well - not getting on the drink because you can is a sign of maturity. I know of several officers who would never normally drink on, say, a Tuesday, but because the mess is cheap, they would get absolutely wrecked.That is, quite frankly, stupid.
I’m not a big drinker, but I will always argue for Staff cadets being able to drink whilst away. If nothing else, the bar gives them a “grown up” space, where they can be away from 13 year olds. I remember a camp as an over 18 at RAF Buchan, where there were 2 X 12 man barrack rooms, and the average age of the cadets was 14. As a nearly 22 year old man, sharing a room with a bunch of overexcited teenagers, who wanted to stay up all night and pillow fight, I found it extremely tedious. Being allowed to go with the staff to a pub made life that little bit more bearable.
Whenever I’m camp commandant, I try and factor in some time out of the programme for the over 18s. Even if the cant drink, treating them like adults, and allowing them to do their own thing every once in a while is the least we can do.
I remember being on a camp as a CWO a few years back. I was around 6 weeks away from turning 20 and was sharing a room with another CWO who was only a couple of months younger than me. Most staff acknowledged the fact that we were adults and treated us as such but there was one or two who didn’t. They would be the ones coming round to tell us that we had to turn our lights out at the exact same time as the cadets even though we would still be trying to sort stuff for the next day.
As has been mentioned a couple of times in this thread I think that as long as we have Staff Cadets in the Corps there will always be those that continue to treat them as 14 year olds.
There seems to be a couple of themes in this thread.
Alcohol consumption by Staff & Over 18s
I think it is an important part of the day where the staff team get together and chill, which may include the consumption of an alcoholic beverage. Unfortunately, the rules are clear for Staff Cadets that they shall not, other than at a Mess Dinner with permission of OC Wing (noting that such occasions require staff sober at a ratio of 1:10)
I’ve have run a residential activity where I had a single staff cadet in attendance, who acted as DS. I was able to accommodate the them in the staff accommodation, which was single room occupancy, and in the evening they joined us in the bar area, however for them it was soft drinks only. I would have liked to allow them to drink whatever they chose, as the staff (other than the 2 duty bods) are able to. I think this was reviewed, but the ban remained in place.
I recall a camp where I was 1 of 3 adults attending as cadets, and the CC took us on a “tesco” run to a pub in a nearby town, far enough away to not be populated with regulars, we had 2 or 3 drinks that evening, it was good to be treated as an adult.
Treatment of Staff Cadets
I treat my staff cadets much the same as @pEp, but in reality they are normally senior NCOs and I would invite my FS/CWOs to staff meetings anyway. When I sign off a 17 year old cadet staying past 18, my main consideration is if I think they have the potential to develop into an individual who I would be happy to sign off their CFAV Application paperwork as CI / SNCO / Officer in 2 years time. We should, in my opinion, not have any cadets ageing out at 20 that we do not wish to retain as staff, if we do we failed at the 18 marked.
I think a lot of staff can’t get used to the cadet, but not a cadet mindset and therefore treat staff cadets as cadets first, rather than staff first. Unless of course it suits them to have an extra member of staff. These people, commonly wg staff and therefore not on unit, need to be re-educated.
The staff cadet situation becomes starkly highlighted when on a joint venture with other cadet forces…
Our 19 year olds are tucked away in their own accomodation and in the evenings are still cadets - with the ban on drinking and socialising with staff still frowned upon by some. Whilst the sea cadet 18 year olds actually are staff - hanging out with the other staff and permitted to drink if they want.
It must suck to be a Staff Cadet on those occasions.
@themajor Who can say what a 17 yo will be like or think when they are coming up to 20. There is also the question who exactly is he ATC for, the cadet or the ATC? I think it has moved away from being for the cadet and is now all about the ATC, which is totally back to front.
I’ve never agreed with this idea of having to “sign off” cadets to stay on past 18, it smacks of form of eugenics and with getting topical, discriminatory (although it would seem we cannot refer to anything on this this current affairs topic) as it’s based on things that are completely pointless and totally arbitrary made up by the club. In the days before this modern staff cadet nonsense, anyone could stay on, regardless until they were 20. Some didn’t bother with staff stuff but some did. When this came out I did wonder how many cadets and from my cadet days, mates, would have been chinned off at 18 as according to their OC their face didn’t fit or they weren’t seen as having the potential or worthy or some other made up in the eye of the beholder claptrap. The last point is moot as we take anyone as long as they get through the hoops if they are over 20.
I personally think (if we are going to persist with the over 18 cadet) the question should be at 17 “do you want stay on over 18”, if you do here’s a DBS and that’s all. No grooming them for being uniformed staff unless they make the approach unprompted and again this is done without favour or discrimination.
This is pretty damn true actually. Never thought about it like that. Age is protected characteristic, so it’s pretty discriminatory to say anyone aged 12-17 can be a part of our org, and anyone 20+ can also be a part, with almost no pre-requisites, however if you’re 18 or 19 then you can’t unless you meet this strict criteria that we’ve made up.
I’m always grateful that in the CCF, policy on mess dinners and the like lies with the school, as it does make things rather simpler. As a boarding school with a sixth form, we do of course have school rules on the consumption of alcohol by both staff and pupils, but it’s a lot more nuanced than NO.
In respect of camps, though, I have a real problem with a total ban on alcohol even in downtime. If you are imposing rules on downtime that don’t apply in normal life when not on camp, then you are implicitly accepting those staff are NOT off duty during that time. That in itself is unacceptable; all staff on camp require time off, or they are working illegal and unsafe hours. Imagine for example the fallout if one of them were to have an RTA in an MT vehicle the next day and it emerged they had had no proper rest breaks.
As a camp comdt I am always very clear who is and who is not on duty - and yes, sometimes I’m off duty myself, although I am not good at that and can often be found in the camp office doing admin even then. But with the number of staff the ATC typically has on camp, there is plenty of scope for duty staff, backup sober staff on call if the duty staff need them, and staff who are definitely off duty and welcome to go to the mess bar or the pub if they want to.
Of course, any hint of that affecting the staff members’ capability of being responsible for cadets when ON duty, e.g. hung over or still drunk when coming on duty in the morning, would be a serious breach of discipline. But I’ve never had a problem with that.
On the other hand, imagine the fallout if they pranged a vehicle because they were still half cut.
In some wings there is a real drinking culture. I’ve been on wing camps (200+ cadets) where only the 2 duty staff and me (I don’t drink very often, and rarely on cadet activities) were sober. I recall one Wing camp where I was the only staff member around at 6.45am when the cadets were told to assemble before breakfast. The DIs who had told the cadets that they would inspect the blocks at 6am tipped up at 7.30, looking like they had just rolled out of bed, and then the WSO Camp Com arrived, unshaven, looking very rough about 5 minutes before Breakfast closed.
Given my experiences, I can quite see why Zero alcohol rules have been introduced.
Classic case though of failing to enforce the existing regulation - so you add more regulations. Kaylee McIntosh all over again. There are already ample provisions for disciplining staff who are drunk on duty.
If you don’t find sitting about after work, chatting with your colleagues, with a lemonade in your hand as relaxing as sitting about after work, chatting with your colleagues, with a beer in your hand, then you have a problem - and it’s not the ACO booze regulations.
Social down time - absolutely necessary. Booze however isn’t, and if it is to you…
It was bonkers, really. The Saturday night Disco started at 7, and most of the staff were in the bar, on their second pint by 7.30. The 2 duty staff were left alone to get 200 hyped up, sugar filled, cadets off to bed when the disco ended at 10. There were a couple of issues at lights out, and when the duty staff came to the bar to ask for some help, I was the only one sober enough to go over. The female WO on duty, quite rightly, had a go at the WSO, before going back to check on the cadets. And then the WSO gave the duty male (a newly appointed Sgt) a couple of beers!
Edited to add, I had to physically restrain a drunk WO from entering the cadet accomadation - I had seen him drink around 8 cans of bitter, and he’d started drinking before I’d arrived.
What made this worse, was that the Wing Commander was present in the bar for most of the evening.
It’s a massive cultural problem in our wing, and seen as the ‘macho’ thing to do, I guess. Oddly enough, I’ve never really been on an annual camp where the staff have been out to get smashed.
I personally wouldn’t attend a Camp where they had put an outright ban on drinking, not because I’m obsessed with going out and getting smashed, but because I point blank refuse to be treated as a child. If as an organisation we don’t trust adults to have a drink and be fit for work the next day (with sanctions in place for those who act stupidly) then how can we be trusted as adults to do anything? (And I have the same views on Staff Cadets drinking, in that the rules are wrong).
The situation you describe is outrageous and I would suggest what’s needed is a minimum night time ratio, 1:10 if there is an activity taking place (Disco/Bowling) and I would say 1:50 duty team out of hours (if it’s just free time/sleep) with 50% above the minimum on Stand By (able to go to the bar but not drink) in case of an incident.
And presumably you reported this? A fire or medical emergency with only 3 sober, responsible people present for 200 cadets doesn’t sound too great to me.
Do the 1:10 ratios not apply at night as these posts imply?
It’s not 100% clear, Fieldcraft used to specify night time ratios but I’m not aware that anything else does.
There is an expectation that staff will have rest periods and breaks of duty (indeed the working time directive says they should have 11 hours) and if you are on a break of duty/resting then is it correct to have you counted towards a ratio? If you go too far down that rabbit hole as an organisation you end up needing 1:5 ratios to maintain a 24 hour 1:10 ratio.
After the fact, yes. But that was before our whistle blowing policy came into being, and I’m not confident that it was taken seriously, especially since the Wing Commander was in the bar at the time.
After a long day of cadet activities, and of putting up with some of our esteemed colleagues, I certainly put the after hours drink down as a “need”, rather than a “want”!
I’m with @angus alcohol is not important, I think the more important thing is time away from the cadets at the end of the day and the cadets have time away from us.