I don’t think anyone is suggesting otherwise - CTT didn’t write the dress rules, but they are part of HQAC’s sphere, they take their lead from the attitudes displayed at HQAC and by its ‘mates’ in the wider structure.
again, I don’t care about either rank slides or HQAC breaking its own stupid rule - I do care about HQAC breaking its stupid, ill-considered, purile, impractical rule, bluffing it off when caught out, and then shamelessly castigating others for doing exactly the same thing.
I don’t think anyone is suggesting otherwise - CTT didn’t write the dress rules, but they are part of HQAC’s sphere, they take their lead from the attitudes displayed at HQAC and by its ‘mates’ in the wider structure.
again, I don’t care about either rank slides or HQAC breaking its own stupid rule - I do care about HQAC breaking its stupid, ill-considered, purile, impractical rule, bluffing it off when caught out, and then shamelessly castigating others for doing exactly the same thing.[/quote]
Just as devils advocate, we do not know whether or not the OC CTT or another member of staff rollicked said Sgt for not wearing correct rank slides, reminded said Sgt for the need for professionalism especially as they have to be the model of professionalism with high attention to detail due to them teaching the ACO how to handle automatic weaponry and when said Sgt sheepishly responds that they haven’t brought any other rank slides inform the Sgt that they can wear the rank slides for that weekend but if they pitch up on a future course their future on the team would be in doubt. You cannot accuse them of double standards unless you were at that weekend, it was noticed by the DS and no action was taken.
However if they haven’t challenged this, it makes you wonder what other matters have been left to slip and go unremarked.
The only time you need to wear field rank tab is that situation - in the field. This is not a rule that effects safety. it is not a ‘stupid’ rule that effects enjoyment or restricts activity nor is it a rule that alters anything apart from aesthetics. Can anyone put forward a decent case on why subdue rank slides should be permitted in terms of benefit to the activity and cadet training? If so submit your case to the uniform committee for it to be reviewed from their.
I did politely ask a member of staff once to remove an IRA style full face balaclava that they thought was acceptable to wear on the range. The response of “it was only a bit of fun” was accepted but responded to quite politely with emphasis on the need for professionalism now we were about to start handling the weapons.
In the case of the ACOCTT I would expect high levels of professionalism, standards & pedantry. They are not working in an environment in which things should be winged or worked out on the back of a fag packet. I expect them to be a bit anal about rules & regs on the grounds its their job. If you don’t like them doing their job to the best of their abilities then you’ve kinda gone to the wrong course.
However as the ACOCTT is service rifle orientated when I see someone with subdue rank slides as the Sgt in question my nature instinct is to think “Walt” and take what they say with a pinch of salt as the initial impression is of someone who wants to play soldiers rather train cadet forces. I don’t completely ‘trust’ the information they are giving me as I now doubt their professionalism.
Finally the ACOCTT are probably the least worse offenders when it comes to this. I know of several staff on another field orientated course who regularly do not wear pins and don’t even have the courtesy to abide by the spirt of the rules of going for embroidered rank slides. Yes the ACOCTT have been ‘spotted’ as it were in this case but its only one individual (the Fg Off is clearly VR(T), so is complying with the spirt of the regs & is avoiding the situation of his pins falling off) and has probably already been dealt with by others.
So full circle - if you think its acceptable to wear subdue slides then : -
1)Why is it acceptable?
2)How does it enhance Cadet training & the cadet experience?
Answers of "it makes you look cool & War-y ", “The RAF do it in the field” and “why shouldn’t we?” do not answer the second question.
I find it surprising that people think that there is somehow a different situation with regards to volunteers serving in HQAC detachments as opposed to Squadron volunteers refusing to wear gilt pins. The problem is often not with the unit, it is the individual. Some people, no matter how many times you tell them, point-blank refuse to wear gilt pins on No.3 rank slides. My boss on my unit refuses, staff on CTT refuse, some staff on JL refuse while others wear them religiously. There is no real difference in the factors that influence that decision from unit to unit, the common theme is that some people just think they are above the rules. I don’t believe it is a unit based thing.
I always wear mine. (And have never broken one except when taking them off to re-rank.) However, if there was an option to wear slides with Gold VRT embroidered in the same place on the slide as we wear the gilts, I would welcome it. It would do the same job, and having seen some of the test slides which were made that way, as well as the VR slides that the UAS now have I think it looks smart as well.
I sometimes think it’s a pride issue. Some people see the VR(T) pins as something negative, something to be ashamed of. Perhaps we should have more pride in the branch’s heritage and proud history, be proud to proclaim that we are VR(T), not be ashamed of it like some people are.
If I was ashamed about them, I would just take them off. Much easier and cheaper than buying some slides with it on
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Where did we get onto subdued?
We’re talking about replacing pins with embroidery.
If nothing else, I’m fairly sure that we’re the only organisation anywhere in the armed forces that wear pin identifiers on working/field clothing.
The rest of the RAF don’t (regiment wear embroidered, aux don’t wear anything), our close cousins in the rest of the RAFVR don’t, the Army and ACF have embroidered ones…
Remember of course that those of our flying brethren have legitimate reasons not to wear the metal pins on their rank insignia. Surely the time has come for this organisation to develop rank insignia for wear in No2/No3 dress which has VR(T) or ATC embroidered in metallic thread in the correct position over (or even below) a standard rank badge and for it to require all CFAV to wear that form of rank. We eliminate the FOD risk and we dodge the whiny “oh, my pins caught in a sling, or it hurts my chest” gunny brigade. TBH, it can get tiresome if the badges catch on a seatbelt sometimes too.
If there needs to be an impulse to move to embroidered rank, if the SNCO/WO CFAV do get hauled into the VR(T) it would seem like an opportunity to make the change.
I’d even suggest that OG slides for DPM/MTP/Flying clothing for officers with embroidered insignia would be fine, instead of matching the fabric of the garment.
Embroidered insignia is clearly the way forward.
If the flying corner can claim that pins should be removed because they are a FOD hazard (yet those cheap, metal pulls on all the zips are not?) then surely someone should be able to appreciate how irritating the pins are when caught on rifle slings.
Pins might be fine on No1 but are ridiculous on a field uniform.
Arguably, if we were to follow the lead of the other Air Force reserves then other ranks shouldn’t be wearing pins on No1 either. Instead they should have cloth badges.
Actually, it’s not all the ACO, the CCF regulations expressly forbid the wearing of gilt pins on Combat uniform
[quote]CCF titles
11.19. The following shoulder titles are available as a free issue:
a. CCF. Embroidered red lettering on a dark blue background.
b. Metal titles. Gold – motif “CCF” or “VRT” as appropriate.
c. Welbeck Defence Sixth Form College Combined Cadet Force. Embroidered white lettering on a dark green background.
11.20. Embroidered titles should be neatly sewn on to the brassard as near the top as possible.
11.21. Metal titles are not to be worn with combat uniform.
[/quote]
Surprised no one has used this as an excuse yet. It does say higher up the regs that staff have to be identified as CCF/VR(T), so one would assume embroidered pins were the only way
:cheer:
Which regulations are these? Do you have a JSP\AP\ACP number as a reference?
JSP313 
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Good god! Could the CCF be doing something sensible? 
It does indeed say so in the JSP (I just took the opportunity to skim through my copy).
I don’t think anyone is suggesting otherwise - CTT didn’t write the dress rules, but they are part of HQAC’s sphere, they take their lead from the attitudes displayed at HQAC and by its ‘mates’ in the wider structure.
again, I don’t care about either rank slides or HQAC breaking its own stupid rule - I do care about HQAC breaking its stupid, ill-considered, purile, impractical rule, bluffing it off when caught out, and then shamelessly castigating others for doing exactly the same thing.[/quote]
Just as devils advocate, we do not know whether or not the OC CTT or another member of staff rollicked said Sgt for not wearing correct rank slides, reminded said Sgt for the need for professionalism especially as they have to be the model of professionalism with high attention to detail due to them teaching the ACO how to handle automatic weaponry and when said Sgt sheepishly responds that they haven’t brought any other rank slides inform the Sgt that they can wear the rank slides for that weekend but if they pitch up on a future course their future on the team would be in doubt. You cannot accuse them of double standards unless you were at that weekend, it was noticed by the DS and no action was taken.
…Yes the ACOCTT have been ‘spotted’ as it were in this case but its only one individual (the Fg Off is clearly VR(T), so is complying with the spirt of the regs & is avoiding the situation of his pins falling off) and has probably already been dealt with by others.
However if they haven’t challenged this, it makes you wonder what other matters have been left to slip and go unremarked. [/quote]
I agree with what you say CT and can see where you’re going with this, but if this were the case then either; the photo’s wouldn’t have been published in the first place, or they would have been removed.
:worthy: Amen.
not sure how we got from rank slides to clobbering ACOCTT but I have seen worse than just rank slides from them… :ohmy:
JSP313 is in the middle of a rewrite - wonder if this will survive …
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As a WI I cant comment but I would like to upskill soon and I’m sure the issue is being dealt with. As wing staff I can advise actions would be taken against any individual if this slagging match was mirrored in a squadron/sector environment. Clear problem with forum anonymity.
This thread is in violation of the usage policy. Mods - why has it not been locked?
I’ve just removed a few posts that were off topic.
Last chance -this is for the discussion of embroidered rank slides, nothing else.
What do the current regulations state? Wear them as per regulations, regardless if you don’t agree with them.
Is there a need for a change or a sensible comparison can be made with those worn elsewhere? If so, write the case & pass it upwards to those in the ivory tower…
PMs from Lima Oscar (who I can only assume is part of ACOCTT, given his recent join date and the thread he’s commenting on).
Okay so you are just going to ignore all the other inappropriate comments? This is still directly contradictory of the forum terms and is detrimental to the ACO as a whole. Completely inappropriate behavior that the mods should have been on top of. Can you delete my profile or direct me on the best way to do it.
Original message from Lima Oscar to pEp (23 October 2014, 14:29):
There are still many inappropriate posts remaining, at least 5 on page 4, still breaking forum rules.