Being a pragmatist my observation would be that perhaps we (the ACO) should look to the world of boarding education in order to properly inform any discussions on LGBT issues. They deal with young people on a day to day (24 hr per day) basis. As far as I am aware (unless someone can tell me differently) boarding accommodation is divided on physical at birth criteria (male/female) and while good staff will be more than aware of and sensitive to individual needs these needs do not dominate the way that education experience is delivered. It seems to me that the same sensible approach would be good for us;.
Do we have the facilities that boarding schools have in terms of physical space when it comes to accommodating minority groups. Over 18s are a minority on camps and they can’t be accommodated as per the rules set out by Cranwell.
Your average camp of 40 cadets will in the modern era have at most a dozen tents with 4 (or maybe 6) to put cadets and in a number of instances staff. There isn’t the physical space to accommodate anyone who pipes up with “I’m …” so while it seems a good way to approach it, unless someone gives HQAC and they the RAF a damn good shake on it, the problem will remain extant.
Apologies GHE2 my point was not well made. What I meant was that Boarding Schools don’t make special arrangements for LGBT children in terms of accommodation or teaching styles. What they try to do is treat their charges as individuals ,when and as appropriate, ito enable them to achievie their educational aims.
OK and that’s how we should be doing it.
I think by and large we do it that way. Every single intake has new cadets with a wide range of different issues and because we don’t have the time and or resources (in all forms) they invariably all get treated the same, although we try and accommodate those with specific LD. Trying to make exceptions for all the various combinations and foibles we get through the door, would be a massive undertaking and one we just can’t do. But then that means those who join have to accept that and like those who don’t like our rules, know where the door is.
GHE - I’m surprised that you’re not starting all of your posts with “I’m not homophobic (/transphobic) but…”
The fact that you seem unwilling to even consider making some sort of accommodation or compromise speaks volumes.
Accommodation and compromise are one thing (OK, maybe 2 things), but pandering is quite another. It is unreasonable to expect any organisation to mutate and bend to every foible and whim of a diverse pool of personal requirements; be they real or imagined, serious or trivial, clear or nuanced.
While we can make reasonable efforts to deal with specific situations when they arise, individuals may need to be prepared to meet us half way.
[quote=“MattB” post=24126]GHE - I’m surprised that you’re not starting all of your posts with “I’m not homophobic (/transphobic) but…”
The fact that you seem unwilling to even consider making some sort of accommodation or compromise speaks volumes.[/quote]
I think that the issue of ‘compromise’ is the key difficulty here.
On the one hand, we are in charge of young people. Each one is different, and comes with their own vulnerabilities, talents and traits.
On the other hand, a very important part of the military ethos is unity. The feeling of being ‘in it together’, sharing customs and traditions, receiving the same opportunities and the same treatment. In my experience, this feeling is far stronger in the older staff, or those who have served in the forces.
I’m not from a service background, but a number of my close friends are. They say that the feeling of unity has been declining for a long time, as the services shrink and become more civilianised. It is also under pressure from the current accepted thinking that everyone is ‘more equal than equal’, ie. it’s not fair just to treat everyone the same, but everyone now has to be treated differently for them to feel equal, or reach their potential.
I think that there’s a lot of value in the concept of unity, in terms of cadet development and the continuation of the ACO, but we also have to remember that we’re not the military and that the military way isn’t automatically the best way, especially when dealing with young people.
Accommodation and compromise are one thing (OK, maybe 2 things), but pandering is quite another. It is unreasonable to expect any organisation to mutate and bend to every foible and whim of a diverse pool of personal requirements; be they real or imagined, serious or trivial, clear or nuanced.
While we can make reasonable efforts to deal with specific situations when they arise, individuals may need to be prepared to meet us half way.[/quote]Agreed 100%.
To be fair, the attitudes towards LGBT in the ATC, admittedly biased towards the squadron I grew up attending, and matching those put forward by certain members of this forum are the reason I could never find the confidence to ‘come out’ as a younger teen. If I’m being perfectly honest the attitudes, especially towards transgenders, are putting me off going back as a member of staff now I have a little more outside experience… And at a time where from what I can see the corps is struggling from a staff retention perspective, I can’t imagine it is in any state to be losing potential staff. In my case I had almost decided to give the corps a chance until reading some of these comments tonight, which to be honest has got me second guessing myself if that’s the attitude I’m going to be putting myself in for. Nobody likes being put in a situation where they feel threatened and vulnerable, and I find it a great shame that an organisation that presents itself as beneficial for young adults has fallen behind so far as to create the very environment we wish to prevent.
Rosie,
There are idiots in all walks of life, don’t be put off by the minority you see here. Homophobia is no more prevalent here than in society in general, and whilst that’s still too high a figure it shouldn’t affect your time as a staff member. I’ve known several openly gay staff members who have had no problems that I know of.
If you are waiting for 100% acceptance then you are going to be waiting for a very long time.
Minorities will always be viewed with a level of suspicion and distrust by those outside: such is human nature and it is not necessarily a flaw. The more “niche” a minority, the greater the suspicion. The path to full acceptance starts with making the condition/attitude/belief/etc. seen as a normal thing and that comes through enhanced exposure.
Personal attitudes will adjust but it will lag behind the enhanced exposure: this will not be an overnight change and in some cases it may take generations.
While it is the policy of the ACO to be open and accepting of all sorts of circumstances and beliefs, actual acceptance cannot be forced onto the individuals that make up the organisation. We may be required to follow the rules but we don’t always like it and that disquiet is often vocalised. This should not affect the operation of a particular unit but staff often need to mask their personal views and project the corporate image. It would be naive to think that we could run an organisation of this size and guarantee that everybody will just roll over and be happy about every nuance and trait of everybody else. Even a Uni LGBT society won’t achieve that.
[quote=“incubus” post=24423]If you are waiting for 100% acceptance then you are going to be waiting for a very long time.
Minorities will always be viewed with a level of suspicion and distrust by those outside: such is human nature and it is not necessarily a flaw. The more “niche” a minority, the greater the suspicion. The path to full acceptance starts with making the condition/attitude/belief/etc. seen as a normal thing and that comes through enhanced exposure.
Personal attitudes will adjust but it will lag behind the enhanced exposure: this will not be an overnight change and in some cases it may take generations.
While it is the policy of the ACO to be open and accepting of all sorts of circumstances and beliefs, actual acceptance cannot be forced onto the individuals that make up the organisation. We may be required to follow the rules but we don’t always like it and that disquiet is often vocalised. This should not affect the operation of a particular unit but staff often need to mask their personal views and project the corporate image. It would be naive to think that we could run an organisation of this size and guarantee that everybody will just roll over and be happy about every nuance and trait of everybody else. Even a Uni LGBT society won’t achieve that.[/quote]
I know I said I was done with this thread, but I expected a lot better from you Incubus.
What a load of absolute tosh.
Read that back and imagine that you are speaking about black people or Jews.
[quote=“tango_lima” post=24444]What a load of absolute tosh.
Read that back and imagine that you are speaking about black people or Jews.[/quote]
I wrote it mindful that I was speaking about the opinion of ANY minority in the eyes of ANY majority. We are talking about having a reasonable expectation of the actual personal beliefs of individuals when faced by somebody of a different race, gender, preference, colour, ability, accent, dress choice, hair colour or any other defining feature.
Everybody has to accept that there will be people out there who are not comfortable with some aspect of them and as much as we may wish to be accepted by everybody it simply is not going to happen all of the time. That is all I have said above. I never said it was OK but it is what it is and the sooner people get that through their skulls the sooner we can move on.
At various times I have found people being hostile to me (either subtly or overtly) for being overweight or over-confident, being a bit weird or a bit smarter than them, failing to kowtow to bullies or speaking with an english accent. I’m not running away, crying in my room or acting all butt-hurt because other people are inferior and can’t deal with it. Hiding away for fear of somebody else’s opinion of you will not change the world and will not help to change attitudes.
All that is very different from having a policy within the organisation and an expectation that our staff toe the line. The minute the organisation (through its people) starts to discriminate in a way that is not permissible by policy or by law is the minute that behaviour needs to be challenged directly and appropriate action taken. You don’t start making complaints simply because you get avoided by someone who doesn’t like something about you so long as that does not directly and negatively put you at any sort of disadvantage* compared to others
( * I would also be very concerned if the reverse were true and that personal attitudes resulted in an unfair or undue advantage being gained by someone.)
Well what about for those cadets who identify as Transgender but legaly cant make the final decision due to age.
I heard of a Sqn with one. They were allowed to wear slacks. That was pretty much the only concession. By the time they had reached 16 they had grown out of it.
Far simpler - just let them identify woth the gender that they want. Can’t see any issues from anyone with that (and if there is, they need to have veey strong words with themselves)
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I fear the issue is for overnight accomodation, abultions etc and what parents may feel, in particular young females and males showering etc together.
I agree with this. They’re young, let them have the freedom to make their choices, just make sure their parents are kept informed of everything, especially which toilet they prefer to use, or which changing rooms they’d like to use etc. Consideration should also be taken into the comfort of the rest of the cadets.
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Yes, girls can wear a slacks, but boys wearing skirts and showering with the girls? You would need consent from each female cadet’s parent for that wouldn’t you? Another question for Wing (well Corps really) to decide. I’m sure there is policy… We have a Wing LGBT Officer so there must be a hierarchy.
WRT showers.
Have you not been to a swimming pool recently? They now all have communal changing and showers. I’ve been to one which had unisex toilets, very bizarre. There are cubicles to get changed in, but that’s it and I would suspect that if you asked, 99% of parents would wonder if you’d banged your head.
Unless it is this odd little world we operate in that is detached from reality.
Sleeping is a different matter. We only let our kids’ bf/gf stay with them in their room, if it’s a more stable relationship in our eyes.