Lgbt

Cadets Ask the Staff
61

[quote=“talon” post=23955][quote=“jacques” post=23954]
Where should a cadet who appears to be physically male, but identifies as a female, sleep/shower?
Where should a cadet who appears to be physically female, but identifies as a male, sleep/shower?
[/quote]

You put them with their physical gender. We don’t have the facilities to cater for every scenario.[/quote]

Equally unacceptable.

To a trans person, there is no such thing as ‘physical gender’.

Trust me, I have had this conversation in the real world, with real LGBT people and their close friends. I have played ‘devil’s advocate’ and put forward RAS’s arguments and had them rebutted.

I am not saying that there is an easy solution or that I have a real answer. I’m saying that it’s time we started looking for one and stopped pretending the problem doesn’t exist.

Pretending there is no problem is not the same thing as solving the problem.

62

[quote=“RearAdmiralScrinson” post=23959][quote=“MattB” post=23958][quote=“RearAdmiralScrinson” post=23957]And MattB. Fantastic post, however my original quote was not made towards gays But indeed transgenders. [/quote]In which case:

You can be dangerously underweight.
You can’t be dangerously transsexual.[/quote]

Again. You missed my point…[/quote]Which was what?

You seem to be mixing up gender dysphoria with mental illnesses/disorders. An illness is something which is bad or harmful - both homosexuality and gender dysphoria have been proven to not be harmful by themselves.

Anorexia IS harmful. That’s the difference.

63

You’re forgetting that cadets may read these forums, and your damaging posts.

Opinions are good in most circumstances, especially on forums, however it is important to think about who may read (and interpret) them… What you’ve been saying can cause a lot of damage to a person who is struggling with being LGBT. I’ve dealt with many people through various charity work who have struggled and even attempted to take their own life.
We all have a role to play here, as said previously we need to teach these young people to tolerate others no matter of personal opinion.

In other words, think before you post!

64

You may wish to reconsider your sentence structure there…

There is a gamut of variance within the area of gender identity and a range of abilities for individuals (those directly affected or those just encountering) to deal with the situation.There are many ways in which this organisation can make it easier to deal with situations which are at the extremes of the bell-curve.

However there does come a point where collectively we will just need to say “tough!” and admit that we cannot specifically cater for some situations, either legally or practically. In those case people might need to either “man up” (so to speak) and get on with it, or exclude themselves from the activity.

65

[quote=“tango_lima” post=23962][quote=“talon” post=23955][quote=“jacques” post=23954]
Where should a cadet who appears to be physically male, but identifies as a female, sleep/shower?
Where should a cadet who appears to be physically female, but identifies as a male, sleep/shower?
[/quote]

You put them with their physical gender. We don’t have the facilities to cater for every scenario.[/quote]

Equally unacceptable.

To a trans person, there is no such thing as ‘physical gender’.

Trust me, I have had this conversation in the real world, with real LGBT people and their close friends. I have played ‘devil’s advocate’ and put forward RAS’s arguments and had them rebutted.
[/quote]

Tough. That is how it will be. They may not be happy with it but we cannot cater to every single person. Take a wild guess how it works when assigning them to a male or female prison?

66

Has anyone actually had this scenario occur as part of cadet activities? I’m not just talking about having a gay/lesbian in the same accommodation/ablutions as heterosexuals, but transgender cadets?

67

[quote=“talon” post=23967][quote=“tango_lima” post=23962][quote=“talon” post=23955][quote=“jacques” post=23954]
Where should a cadet who appears to be physically male, but identifies as a female, sleep/shower?
Where should a cadet who appears to be physically female, but identifies as a male, sleep/shower?
[/quote]

You put them with their physical gender. We don’t have the facilities to cater for every scenario.[/quote]

Equally unacceptable.

To a trans person, there is no such thing as ‘physical gender’.

Trust me, I have had this conversation in the real world, with real LGBT people and their close friends. I have played ‘devil’s advocate’ and put forward RAS’s arguments and had them rebutted.
[/quote]

Tough. That is how it will be. They may not be happy with it but we cannot cater to every single person. Take a wild guess how it works when assigning them to a male or female prison?[/quote]

I don’t need to guess. I looked it up.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/03/07/new-guidelines-state-rights-for-transgender-prisoners/

[quote]Trans women who are legally recognised in their new gender must be placed in female prisons unless there are security reasons not to do so, the document says.

Those who have not yet acquired a Gender Recognition Certificate will not automatically be placed in the appropriate prison. Instead, the document says, a meeting will be held to determine where they should be placed.

Rules say: “This is a legal issue rather than an anatomical one, and under no circumstances should a physical search or examination be conducted for this purpose.”[/quote]

In short, the opposite of your implication.

Probably nobody. But the attitudes in this thread are making it pretty clear that the ATC is hardly welcoming to trans individuals.

That is the problem.

68

[quote=“tango_lima” post=23972]Probably nobody. But the attitudes in this thread are making it pretty clear that the ATC is hardly welcoming to trans individuals.

That is the problem.[/quote]
I don’t think it’s the attitudes so much as the fact the Corps isn’t geared up for catering for all eventualities. As adult staff, we work with what we have and generally have a lot of constraints placed upon us especially in relation to availability of accommodation, ergo, we can’t cater for all flavours.

So maybe the LGBT community should meet us halfway and for the duration of the activity they’ve volunteered for, suck it up and get on with it. Either that, or don’t volunteer for it.

Sorry, but as far as I’m concerned, that’s the reality of the situation.

69

Should the ATC be accomadating of those identifying as “otherkin” or animals?

What about those who identifty as inanimate objects?

what about the genderless?

Or genderqueers?

Or Asexuals?

What about apotemnophiliacs?

What about Hermaphrodites?

Wheres the line?

70

[quote=“Gunner” post=23974]I don’t think it’s the attitudes so much as the fact the Corps isn’t geared up for catering for all eventualities. As adult staff, we work with what we have and generally have a lot of constraints placed upon us especially in relation to availability of accommodation, ergo, we can’t cater for all flavours.

So maybe the LGBT community should meet us halfway and for the duration of the activity they’ve volunteered for, suck it up and get on with it. Either that, or don’t volunteer for it.

Sorry, but as far as I’m concerned, that’s the reality of the situation.[/quote]
Not only this but also the fact that the teenage years are those where the hormonal imbalances result in mixed feelings and emotions, as such some of our members could say they were whatever one minute and not the next. Yes I know that some are sure of their feelings / leanings but the vast majority aren’t.
Anyone who has been staff / adult in any organisation with lots of teenagers for a few years will know where I am coming from. People I know who are teachers say it’s a minefield and as class teachers many say they aren’t allowed to know, other than some cryptic whisperings from senior staff.

71

[quote=“Gunner” post=23974][quote=“tango_lima” post=23972]Probably nobody. But the attitudes in this thread are making it pretty clear that the ATC is hardly welcoming to trans individuals.

That is the problem.[/quote]
I don’t think it’s the attitudes so much as the fact the Corps isn’t geared up for catering for all eventualities. As adult staff, we work with what we have and generally have a lot of constraints placed upon us especially in relation to availability of accommodation, ergo, we can’t cater for all flavours…[/quote]We can try though.

72

[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=23979][quote=“Gunner” post=23974]I don’t think it’s the attitudes so much as the fact the Corps isn’t geared up for catering for all eventualities. As adult staff, we work with what we have and generally have a lot of constraints placed upon us especially in relation to availability of accommodation, ergo, we can’t cater for all flavours.

So maybe the LGBT community should meet us halfway and for the duration of the activity they’ve volunteered for, suck it up and get on with it. Either that, or don’t volunteer for it.

Sorry, but as far as I’m concerned, that’s the reality of the situation.[/quote]
Not only this but also the fact that the teenage years are those where the hormonal imbalances result in mixed feelings and emotions, as such some of our members could say they were whatever one minute and not the next. Yes I know that some are sure of their feelings / leanings but the vast majority aren’t.
Anyone who has been staff / adult in any organisation with lots of teenagers for a few years will know where I am coming from. People I know who are teachers say it’s a minefield and as class teachers many say they aren’t allowed to know, other than some cryptic whisperings from senior staff.[/quote]

Your both people with a great deal of experience and I respect you and what you have to say, but in this matter you really don’t know what you are talking about.

A trans woman considers themselves to be a woman. As far as they are concerned they have been born in the wrong body. We can’t ask them to meet us halfway and be a man for x number of days. How would you feel if you were compelled to live as a woman to make other people’s lives easier? I imagine you would be horrified. A trans person lives with that horror every single day and a significant number of them end their own lives out of preference.

When it comes to LGBT issues, all I’m asking for is a little bit of effort on behalf of the ATC. Not a miracle, just a willingness to say “Let’s look at this and try and be compassionate and find some solutions, even if it isn’t one size fits all” rather than “Meh, this is too complicated, let’s ignore it”

73

Being transgender is different to being L, G or B. It’s those who fall into these categories whom I would expect to be the ones ‘meeting us halfway’ in light of the fact we may not be able to cater solely for them, due to lack of resources. One of those resources being specialist training.

Hang on - should this not be the other way round? The ATC should be working on behalf of [I]us[/I]. THEY need to provide us with training to deal with this in the first place. If they don’t, then how do they - and others - expect us to react to these situations? At the moment, it’s a case of ‘damned if you do and damned if you don’t’.

I’m a pragmatist. As OC of an activity, If I can help someone that has specific individual needs (ranging from a physical disability, injury or just that they don’t like the taste of broccoli), then I’ll do my best for them. However, if the resources aren’t there to provide for those specific needs then I apply what to me, is the best solution for [I]all[/I] concerned, even though it might not be ideal. That said, I’ve never had to deal with an LGBT issue but if I had to, I’d do what I’ve mentioned above. We have to remember, we’re youth leaders with bare-bones training, not fully-qualified social workers.

I’d be curious to know how often staff come across these issues during their time in the Corps and how did they deal with them?

74

[quote=“tango_lima” post=23983][quote=“glass half empty 2” post=23979][quote=“Gunner” post=23974]I don’t think it’s the attitudes so much as the fact the Corps isn’t geared up for catering for all eventualities. As adult staff, we work with what we have and generally have a lot of constraints placed upon us especially in relation to availability of accommodation, ergo, we can’t cater for all flavours.

So maybe the LGBT community should meet us halfway and for the duration of the activity they’ve volunteered for, suck it up and get on with it. Either that, or don’t volunteer for it.

Sorry, but as far as I’m concerned, that’s the reality of the situation.[/quote]
Not only this but also the fact that the teenage years are those where the hormonal imbalances result in mixed feelings and emotions, as such some of our members could say they were whatever one minute and not the next. Yes I know that some are sure of their feelings / leanings but the vast majority aren’t.
Anyone who has been staff / adult in any organisation with lots of teenagers for a few years will know where I am coming from. People I know who are teachers say it’s a minefield and as class teachers many say they aren’t allowed to know, other than some cryptic whisperings from senior staff.[/quote]

Your both people with a great deal of experience and I respect you and what you have to say, but in this matter you really don’t know what you are talking about.

A trans woman considers themselves to be a woman. As far as they are concerned they have been born in the wrong body. We can’t ask them to meet us halfway and be a man for x number of days. How would you feel if you were compelled to live as a woman to make other people’s lives easier? I imagine you would be horrified. A trans person lives with that horror every single day and a significant number of them end their own lives out of preference.

When it comes to LGBT issues, all I’m asking for is a little bit of effort on behalf of the ATC. Not a miracle, just a willingness to say “Let’s look at this and try and be compassionate and find some solutions, even if it isn’t one size fits all” rather than “Meh, this is too complicated, let’s ignore it”[/quote]

In that light. Imagine the horror of the young girls being subject to meat and 2 veg in their accomadation and shower block? That are too young to “understand” Some will find it uncomfortable no matter how much you preach this tumblr acceptance nonsense.

The only solution would be their own accomadation and ablutions. That is a suitable and compromising solution for both parties.

75

Right, Scrinson, my patience has officially run out. And the irony is that it’s just as you actually point out a reasonable compromise/solution.

I don’t disagree that it’s a horribly difficult situation that nobody should ever have to deal with and, god willing, nobody ever will.

What gets my goat is 1) the attitude of some posters that the genuine misery of others is an acceptable price to pay for them not having to face an awkward situation and 2) the lack of education around LGBT issues for staff.

Yes, L, G, B and T are all very different things, but I’m not the one who chose to categorise them together.

This is not “tumblr acceptance nonsense”. This is how the world works now. You are the one who is in the wrong.

Like I said before, I know this because I have held similar views to the ones you have put forward in this thread. I have been challenged on them and I have educated myself. And I am a better person for it.

You are responsible for helping to turn kids into decent adults. Personally, I would rather you turned them into adults who believe in “acceptance nonsense” than adults who think being trans is the same thing as declaring yourself to be a sweet potato.

And with that, I shall check out of this thread. I don’t really see that I have anything more to say.

76

[quote=“tango_lima” post=23987][quote=“RearAdmiralScrinson” post=23986]
In that light. Imagine the horror of the young girls being subject to meat and 2 veg in their accomadation and shower block? That are too young to “understand” Some will find it uncomfortable no matter how much you preach this tumblr acceptance nonsense.
[/quote]

Right, Scrinson, my patience has officially run out. And the irony is that it’s just as you actually point out a reasonable compromise/solution.

I don’t disagree that it’s a horribly difficult situation that nobody should ever have to deal with and, god willing, nobody ever will.

What gets my goat is 1) the attitude of some posters that the genuine misery of others is an acceptable price to pay for them not having to face an awkward situation and 2) the lack of education around LGBT issues for staff.

Yes, L, G, B and T are all very different things, but I’m not the one who chose to categorise them together.

This is not “tumblr acceptance nonsense”. This is how the world works now. You are the one who is in the wrong.

Like I said before, I know this because I have held similar views to the ones you have put forward in this thread. I have been challenged on them and I have educated myself. And I am a better person for it.

You are responsible for helping to turn kids into decent adults. Personally, I would rather you turned them into adults who believe in “acceptance nonsense” than adults who think being trans is the same thing as declaring yourself to be a sweet potato.

And with that, I shall check out of this thread. I don’t really see that I have anything more to say.[/quote]

I think you will find I suggested the “reasonable compromise” in earlier posts.
And was told it was not good enough. So what is it?

Hey, if you want to slap on a dress and call yourself Sally, fair play. I have been known to wear the odd cocktail dress on a night out or 2, quite comfy.
You do what you need to do to make yourself happy.

Just dont get an ■■■■ on because, although your happy with what your doing, other people arent as comfortable.

If you want to change and mutilate your body then fine but when you start dragging other people and children in and forcing your ideals down their throats like its normal, its not fine.

The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few. If the rare 1 or 2 person has to spend a little time out their comfort zone, then sorry they are just going to have to man up and understand that theres a bigger picture. Tolerance is a 2 way street.

I would rather help to shape young adults to think for themselves and make their own minds up and not to follow what other people say or be told what to think or be offended at.

If they come to me with any of the aforementioned issues I will direct them to far more qualified help than me.

And I find it offensive you wont take my self diagnosis of being a sweet potato serious, you should check your vegetable privilege.

77

It is abundantly clear that the ACO in general needs to do more to help educate some/the majority of our staff and cadets around LGBT - not to isolate or make anyone stand out - but to increase awareness of potential issues and increase tolerance. They’ve done it for religion etc.

And I believe the Cmdt’s post regarding the emails to Wg Cdr Admin are the first steps of a rather long process.

I’ll admit, I used to be a regular viewer of these forums as a cadet… If I had seen this thread and some of the comments thrown around from what I presume to be current staff or cynical former staff, I’d only be more concerned around my own sexuality and if any of it is really “worth it”. Instead I’ve embraced who I am - I have a good circle of friends in and out of the Corps, all of which know…
I know for a fact there’s a few in my friend circle within the Corps don’t agree with homosexuality - to which I don’t care - I still act as myself, if they don’t like it then I’m sure they’d get out of my life…

78

I was already aware of it, I am still aware of it, still doesnt make me qualified.

Take it up with A Docter, a Quack, a Parent or Social worker.

I am tolerant of it but lets not make other people uncomfortable or force veiws on other people. Its give and take.

And as for religion. That can of worms needs to be left at home. The sooner we forget about fairytales the better.

79

Agreed, you’re no where near mate… However you still need to be made aware of the potential impact your loose lip can cause.
Yes life is harsh, yes people may need to deal with difficulties - but there are ways of going about things - not acting like a pollock on a thread on a potentially delicate subject for some.

Perhaps if you have had to deal with the fall out and some of the worst case scenarios you might have a shred of understanding and empathy. Not that I would wish anyone to go through that of course… But some need a wake up call.

Going off your remarks throughout this thread - I beg to differ. Your views are well documented. I would advise against sharing these or spouting the same brown stuff again to protect any young cadet etc seeing this.

Who knew the LGBT subject could be such a touchy subject to bring out the worst in people…

80

Sorry mate, but the world aint all sunshine and rainbows. Your not going to get everyone to like you and understand you. Thats just the way to world works.

Do whatever you want to make yourself happy but when you start bringing kids into it and shoving ideals down peoples throats then its not fine.

And I will be honest, a lot of it I have been arguing for arguments sake. I couldnt give a toss what you wear or who your attracted too.
If people who dont understand cant talk and ask questions, without getting stuff screamed and rammed down their throat till its accepted then nothing will get solved.

1 minute an Idea is acceptable but then 2 minutes later its discrimination and wrong.
You all claim equality but demand special treatment. We segregate gender for so many reasons therefore segregate down further when such issues arise. Simple. Just going to have to deal with it.

And yea your right who knew it could be such a touchy subject to bring out the worst of people, usually which in my experience, have been from members of the LGBT community.