In my experience, promulgation in the shooting fraternity is some of the worst in the ACO. Messages never get passed out and changes are often absorbed by some form of osmosis rather than an active effort to change.
Only for you air bears. The rest of us are still following Pam 21C.
could not agree more, whether it is a change in the Pam ( lesson 3 to 3.1), change in the RASP/RAM aide memoir usage, the wording change in the declaration…each time its by fluke that a SATT member is present at whatever weapons training/shooting day to offer the correction, and even then is only ever to those half dozen staff present, no “all points/Sqn” email FAO Sqn Shooting officers, not personal email from the Wg Shooting Officer sent out to his list of shooting bods
with regard to lesson 3.1 i would teach the load in the standing position but confess for WHTs i tend to conduct the load in the prone position.
[quote=“talon”]
Only for you air bears. The rest of us are still following Pam 21C.[/quote]
An interesting comment Talon. The Army are the masters of all things weaponry and produce the Pams and amendments, and one would assume, the temporary documents, so why are the ACF not following them and yet the ATC are expected to? Have the ACF been given the temporary Lesson 3.1 of Pam 5C which you actually teach, although you WHT iaw Pam 21C?
[quote=“cygnus maximus” post=9957][quote=“talon”]
Only for you air bears. The rest of us are still following Pam 21C.[/quote]
An interesting comment Talon. The Army are the masters of all things weaponry and produce the Pams and amendments, and one would assume, the temporary documents, so why are the ACF not following them and yet the ATC are expected to? Have the ACF been given the temporary Lesson 3.1 of Pam 5C which you actually teach, although you WHT iaw Pam 21C?[/quote]
We follow all directives we are given. We have been given the new rifle lesson 3 and we teach it. We have not been given any amendments to Pam 21C after amendment 1 and so continue to use the WHT as it is printed in it. I have seen nothing from Frimley that says we are supposed to change the WHT, and the ACI is a SASC Captain.
I can only assume that this change to the WHT was made up be someone on your side of the fence.
[quote=talon]
I can only assume that this change to the WHT was made up be someone on your side of the fence.[/quote]
Could well be. BADER Sharepoint, on which the Lesson 3.1 resides, has a comment under the document title ‘This version, Lesson 3.1 replaces the original Lesson 3 in Pam 5c. During WHTs (see Pam 21c Chapter 5) drills are to be carried out as taught in Lesson 3.1’. That’s the only ‘directive’ we have had as far as I know.
and in the long and short of it, it matters little which system is adopted during the WHT providing the lessons were taught in full and the WHT is passed successfully…
I’m hesitant to accept a scribble in the margins as any sort of authority to deviate from the Pam in this instance.
TG Letter 1-13 is a more formal authority for the use of the new lesson 3.1 but mentions nothing about Pam 21c nor WHTs.
[quote=“incubus” post=9961]I’m hesitant to accept a scribble in the margins as any sort of authority to deviate from the Pam in this instance.
TG Letter 1-13 is a more formal authority for the use of the new lesson 3.1 but mentions nothing about Pam 21c nor WHTs.[/quote]
I concur with your musings on this subject and will continue to follow the words written in the WHT in PAM 21-C which clearly states “loading in the prone position.”
have recently seen an instructor on the HQAC CTT conducting WHTs for cadets and they were definitely given the order “adopt the prone position” by the tester. So if its good enough for them its good enough for me!
Concur as well.
I’ve not seen anything ordering or authorising a change in the WHT - the lesson makes it clear that the load may be conducted in the standing position, but I don’t see anything that says it must be conducted thus.
The WHT as currently promulgated clearly involves a prone load, so I’d argue that it’s incorrect to conduct the test any other way.
[quote=“cygnus maximus” post=9959][quote=talon]
I can only assume that this change to the WHT was made up be someone on your side of the fence.[/quote]
Could well be. BADER Sharepoint, on which the Lesson 3.1 resides, has a comment under the document title ‘This version, Lesson 3.1 replaces the original Lesson 3 in Pam 5c. During WHTs (see Pam 21c Chapter 5) drills are to be carried out as taught in Lesson 3.1’. That’s the only ‘directive’ we have had as far as I know.[/quote]
The drill as taught is to be carried out in the position that the command has been given in, so if in the prone not to stand up. The WHT is still to have the load in the prone position as per PAM 21C. This will be altered in the next amendment of the PAM.
I wonder if they’ll take out the ludicrous requirement for the function test to be carried out in the prone position…
With my lawyer hat on…
Lesson 3.1 details how the load is to be carried out.
The WHT includes a load.
Surely therefore the load should be done in the manner taught?
Now, I’m not percludig loading in the prone position, but the WHT does not detail exactly how the load is to be done just that it should be done precisely.
[quote=“cygnus maximus” post=9943]Lesson 3.1 - On the command LOAD, take one pace forward with the left foot bringing the rifle to the horizontal position - check safety catch,insert magazine etc etc.
You start in the low port position , how could you bring the rifle horizontal if was already there?[/quote]
Do you mean ‘high port’ - rifle across the body - rather than low port?
[quote=“Perry Mason” post=9966]With my lawyer hat on…
Lesson 3.1 details how the load is to be carried out.
The WHT includes a load.
Surely therefore the load should be done in the manner taught?
Now, I’m not percludig loading in the prone position, but the WHT does not detail exactly how the load is to be done just that it should be done precisely.[/quote]
PAM-5 uses exactly the same text - does this mean that a soldier taking cover with an unloaded weapon should stand up upon being given the order load?
actually, certainly as i read it (and it was explained to me) the teaching of all drills in lesson 3.1 may be done standing up
at no point does it indicate “in the prone position” between 0191 (load), 0194 (make safe) (with the unload in the middle of that)
on my SAAI course it (lesson 3) was taught/EDIP demonstrated in the standing up position. once a fluid drill you can then move to the prone position…
only in para 0195 does it state the load may be conducted standing up prior to the prone position
"0195. Explain: The rifle will normally be loaded in the standing position and the student will subsequently adopt any firing position which may be ordered"
lesson 3.0 indicates in para 0188 a. “Loading will always be carried out in the prone position.” which the subsequent drills following…
[quote=“Perry Mason” post=9966]With my lawyer hat on…
Lesson 3.1 details how the load is to be carried out.
The WHT includes a load.
Surely therefore the load should be done in the manner taught?
Now, I’m not percludig loading in the prone position, but the WHT does not detail exactly how the load is to be done just that it should be done precisely.[/quote]
The WHT text says (immediately prior to the command to load) "Order “Adopt the Prone Position”, Cadet or CFAV to adopt the Prone Position. It then doesn’t instruct you to get them to stand up to load!
So the lesson teaches the load in the standing position, simply because its easier to do so from an instructional perspective and the “Holding and aiming in the prone position” lesson comes later in the PAM and obviously everyone knows how to stand up correctly prior to the lessons!
[quote=tango_lima]
Do you mean ‘high port’ - rifle across the body - rather than low port?[/quote]
I mean Low Port as shown in Fig 1-3 on page 1-9 of Pam 5C
[quote=“cygnus maximus” post=9971][quote=tango_lima]
Do you mean ‘high port’ - rifle across the body - rather than low port?[/quote]
I mean Low Port as shown in Fig 1-3 on page 1-9 of Pam 5C[/quote]
I haven’t got a copy in front of me, sorry, but I can probably get hold of one a bit later. Are we talking about rifle butt on ammunition pouches, international mercenary style?
I’m not claiming special knowledge here, it’s just that I’ve always been told that the rifle should be in the high port as ‘default’. Seems a lot less unwieldy too. Especially with cadets and especially coming into the standing load.
Sorry Tango Lima, yes it is as you describe, butt on ammo pouches, muzzle slightly forward and outwards. High port has the weapon diagonally across the body almost where it would be in the front carry.