[quote=“Perry Mason” post=9922]
Was no suggestion about being a loony… its a fact - we all are or we wouldnt be here.[/quote]
Very true!
[quote=“Perry Mason” post=9922]
Pam5C quite clearly sets out cleaning regimes. Whilst I can’t vouch for every WI/SAAI, the ones I work with do a good job at teaching cleaning, as per the book.
Is the problem the initial instruction - or is it cadets simply not firing regularly enough to keep current, and instead suffer from skill fade?
All too often we like to wag the finger and blame WIs/SAAIs/RCOs/SATTs (and instructors in other fields) without looking at the bigger picture. Cadets suffer skill fade very quickly - if they dont shoot, clean, keep current, they soon get rusty - much like a badly cleaned rifle.[/quote]
All good points Perry and I commend your support of our WIs/SAAIs, but as I pointed out in my OP, the cadets are being told the wrong things; ie you can’t use scotchbrite, there isn’t a brush for the gas block, the bolt isn’t affected by gas etc etc. Where are they getting these from? OK, there will always be an element of ‘cadet folklore’ where they make up their own rules, but why aren’t the WIs/SAAIs/RCOs picking it up?
[quote=MattB]
I feel that a good place to start would be to ensure that all people who are qcWHT have the balls to point-blank refuse to administer any sort of ‘cut-down’ version of the WHT.[/quote]
Another good point, but I don’t think it’s a case of qcWHTs refusing to administer a cut-down version, I think it’s more a case of they’ve decided to administer it that way. I would suggest that unless they’re part of the shooting ‘crowd’, many of those in a position to ‘put pressure’ on a qcWHT staff member probably don’t know the content anyway
Assuming they listen to you! If Cadet Bloggs is taught something wrong by his #1 favourite instructor he may not listen to you, the instructor he only sees once every few months. I am always telling cadets that they don’t need to hold the working parts to the rear during a function test or tap forward during an NSP, but I often get the response “Sgt X told me to do it”. :ohmy:
[quote=“talon” post=9929][quote=“cygnus maximus” post=9928]
there will always be an element of ‘cadet folklore’ where they make up their own rules, but why aren’t the WIs/SAAIs/RCOs picking it up?
[/quote]
Assuming they listen to you! If Cadet Bloggs is taught something wrong by his #1 favourite instructor he may not listen to you, the instructor he only sees once every few months. I am always telling cadets that they don’t need to hold the working parts to the rear during a function test or tap forward during an NSP, but I often get the response “Sgt X told me to do it”. :ohmy:[/quote]
How can you do a function test holding the working parts to the rear??? :?
[quote=“Baldrick” post=9930][quote=“talon” post=9929][quote=“cygnus maximus” post=9928]
there will always be an element of ‘cadet folklore’ where they make up their own rules, but why aren’t the WIs/SAAIs/RCOs picking it up?
[/quote]
Assuming they listen to you! If Cadet Bloggs is taught something wrong by his #1 favourite instructor he may not listen to you, the instructor he only sees once every few months. I am always telling cadets that they don’t need to hold the working parts to the rear during a function test or tap forward during an NSP, but I often get the response “Sgt X told me to do it”. :ohmy:[/quote]
How can you do a function test holding the working parts to the rear??? :?[/quote]
When cocking for the first time, as it used to be with the L98A1.
[quote=“talon” post=9931][quote=“Baldrick” post=9930][quote=“talon” post=9929][quote=“cygnus maximus” post=9928]
there will always be an element of ‘cadet folklore’ where they make up their own rules, but why aren’t the WIs/SAAIs/RCOs picking it up?
[/quote]
Assuming they listen to you! If Cadet Bloggs is taught something wrong by his #1 favourite instructor he may not listen to you, the instructor he only sees once every few months. I am always telling cadets that they don’t need to hold the working parts to the rear during a function test or tap forward during an NSP, but I often get the response “Sgt X told me to do it”. :ohmy:[/quote]
How can you do a function test holding the working parts to the rear??? :?[/quote]
When cocking for the first time, as it used to be with the L98A1.[/quote]
To be honest, I never saw a proper function test on an A1, they always seemed to be on the lines of “Cock it and recock it really hard and see if it breaks!”
Assuming they listen to you! If Cadet Bloggs is taught something wrong by his #1 favourite instructor he may not listen to you, the instructor he only sees once every few months. I am always telling cadets that they don’t need to… tap forward during an NSP, but I often get the response “Sgt X told me to do it”. :ohmy:[/quote]
a complete bug bare of mine is when STAFF try to correct Cadets that dont do one an NSP
i dont teach the tap forward on the NSP, its not in the book…then in a following lesson see STAFF Jones tell the Cadet I have just trained off for not tapping forward!
of the handful of staff i have “re-educated” (each time with the PAM in hand after the first one asked me to "show me where it says that in the book) they always use the same excuse “yeah, but it is good practise” - not once an apology or acknowledgement they were wrong!
[quote=“talon” post=9929][quote=“cygnus maximus” post=9928]
there will always be an element of ‘cadet folklore’ where they make up their own rules, but why aren’t the WIs/SAAIs/RCOs picking it up?
[/quote]
Assuming they listen to you! If Cadet Bloggs is taught something wrong by his #1 favourite instructor he may not listen to you, the instructor he only sees once every few months. I am always telling cadets that they don’t need to hold the working parts to the rear during a function test or tap forward during an NSP, but I often get the response “Sgt X told me to do it”. :ohmy:[/quote]Unless that’s changed recently, it is part of the NSP drill!
My copy says:
(1) With the left hand press down on the bolt release catch, tap forward on the cocking handle….
As for the L98A1 function test, it’s been a while but I seem to recall that it was check hold open catch works, release parts, pull trigger with safety catch applied, pull trigger w/o safety catch applied, safety-sights-dust cover.
It hasn’t changed recently but you might have the draft version. The “proper” version has never said that.*
[quote]
As for the L98A1 function test, it’s been a while but I seem to recall that it was check hold open catch works, release parts, pull trigger with safety catch applied, pull trigger w/o safety catch applied, safety-sights-dust cover.[/quote]
It was. For some reason a select few seem to think they know better than the SASC and add it in for the L98A2.
[size=2]*It is part of the drill for the LSW for some reason though…[/size]
[quote=“Perry Mason” post=9922]
Is the problem the initial instruction - or is it cadets simply not firing regularly enough to keep current, and instead suffer from skill fade?[/quote]
That’s the nail hit on the head. I find that even the most proficient firers often struggle to clean their rifle to the required standard on a Wing Range Day because with all the best intentions the ATC programme is so packed and cadets aren’t always regularly firing the L98A2.
So we routinely re-teach lesson 4 for first time firers and have a system where the rest of the cadets cleaning rifles are supervised by experienced SAAIs/WIs/RCOs to ensure the weapons are cleaned correctly and they’re checked prior to assembly!
[quote=talon]
but I often get the response “Sgt X told me to do it”.[/quote]
So who is correcting Sgt X?
The cadets doing the wrong drills are the symptoms and as you say, this could be difficult to change. The root cause is the cadets getting incorrect instruction and that will only change when those responsible follow the book properly.
While we’re on the subject, the new Lesson 3.1 is another good example. Most of the cadets I’ve taken on the range recently do not have a clue what the low port position is and have said that they do their WHTs loading in the prone position. If they have by chance been taught to load in the standing position, they start with the rifle horizontal. Fine, I’m sure lots of people are thinking ‘ loading in the standing position isn’t safe’ or ‘making the cadets keep the rifle pointed down the range at all times is safe’; Pam 5c Lesson 3.1 as promulgated by HQAC says that’s the way to do it, so why are only a few doing so?
[quote=“talon” post=9935][quote=“MattB” post=9934]
My copy says:
(1) With the left hand press down on the bolt release catch, tap forward on the cocking handle….
[/quote]
It hasn’t changed recently but you might have the draft version. The “proper” version has never said that.*[/quote]Ah - ‘provisional’.
I stand corrected! Easy to see where confusion might set in though…
[quote=“cygnus maximus” post=9937]While we’re on the subject, the new Lesson 3.1 is another good example. Most of the cadets I’ve taken on the range recently do not have a clue what the low port position is and have said that they do their WHTs loading in the prone position. If they have by chance been taught to load in the standing position, they start with the rifle horizontal. Fine, I’m sure lots of people are thinking ‘ loading in the standing position isn’t safe’ or ‘making the cadets keep the rifle pointed down the range at all times is safe’; Pam 5c Lesson 3.1 as promulgated by HQAC says that’s the way to do it, so why are only a few doing so?[/quote]Eh? Once again, unless I’m behind the curve the new lesson 3 still requires the rifle to be horizontal (and normal safe-handling states that it would be pointing towards the target).
I thought that too! But re-read it and beleive the OP was making two observations
A number of cadets have no idea what the Low Port Position is
A number of cadets are still completing their load drill in the prone position during the weapons handling test.
To be fair to those instructors lesson 3.1 was poorly promulgated.
The WHT in PAM 21C does say in section of of the test “Loading Prone Position” and the first thing the instructor should do is order the CFAV/Cadet to “Adopt the Prone Position”
Rifle lesson 3 teaches the Load in the standing position because the cadets haven’t officially been taught the prone position by that point, and it does make the lesson a bit easier. They don’t have to load in the standing position any more than any other position, so the WHT isn’t really a problem.
Lesson 3.1 - On the command LOAD, take one pace forward with the left foot bringing the rifle to the horizontal position - check safety catch,insert magazine etc etc.
You start in the low port position , how could you bring the rifle horizontal if was already there?
Precisely! Which is why it’s brought horizontal in the first movement of the load!
For those of you who say ‘ok, but I still do WHT load in the prone position’, have a look at BADER Sharepoint. New Lesson 3.1, comment on Sharepoint from HQAC says that WHT should use procedures as taught in Lesson 3.1.
I agree with you here Perry. The thing is, the Lesson 3.1 was promulgated through Wg Shooting Officers and so everyone associated with shooting and weapons training should have been informed.
Talon, I understand your point, but Lesson 3 has been replaced with Lesson 3.1 which says load in the standing position! BADER Sharepoint clearly says WHTs are to follow Lesson 3.1.
To be fair, as people have said, this wasn’t promulgated well, but you would have thought that a distribution that included All Sqns would have worked. Fuhermore, the new lesson been out quite some time now, so I would have thought the correct message would have got out eventually. I checked with my SATT when it first appeared to make sure as people were doing different things.