Thanks, but where are you taking that from?[/quote]
AP1358C page 110[/quote]
Roger, copy on my laptop was 2012 version. Thought I wasn’t being stupid.
The question is, why doesn’t the no.3 bit say the same about matching the host garment. I know it’s not a huge stretch of the principles of regulation interpretation to say the same must apply to no.3 dress. But such nuances are sometimes lost on the more anal of our staff.
If I recall, the whole ‘Rank Slides’ discussion initially started because of a regulation which said something along the lines of blue rank slides to be worn on all uniforms. This was taken by some (sensibly) to mean that cadets had to wear blue ones, along the lines of that for the Regular Service, with Plt Offs and Fg Offs using appropriate backing material. Unfortunately, others (not sensibly) decided that blue rank slides applied across the board and tried to apply it to backing material for Plt Offs and Fg Offs as well.
Remember, they aren’t real Warrant Officers. You, however, are a member of a Reserve Air Force.
Did you point out to them that there were others incorrectly dressed who they WEREN’T making a fuss about?[/quote]
The words “wind my neck in” may have been uttered at around this point.[/quote]
i’m afraid the comment would have been the other way around had I been in your shoes. These people need sorting - schnellish as they are clearly out of order.
Remember, they aren’t real Warrant Officers. You, however, are a member of a Reserve Air Force.
Did you point out to them that there were others incorrectly dressed who they WEREN’T making a fuss about?[/quote]
The words “wind my neck in” may have been uttered at around this point.[/quote]
i’m afraid the comment would have been the other way around had I been in your shoes. These people need sorting - schnellish as they are clearly out of order.
Maybe because they didn’t have MTP?..[/quote]
Well, the WO who had the issue with it was in Blues, the WO who told me to wind my neck in in MTP and the third WO who was admiring the fact I had made my own MTP rank slides until I asked him why the first WO was of the opinion that they were incorrect was in DPM.
This argument always winds me up & it purley people being petty to exert their authority.
The last time I had this told to me, I politely pointed it out to the SNCO that officer braid is issued already backed and that a pilot officer rank insignia is a Light blue band on a dark blue backing. Hence why a Flying Officer can just join the braid together and put a VR(T) pin through the middle and it is perfectly correct.
And in addition to all this there is a MTP Combat rank slide for officers where the Dark Blue/Light Blue Band is replaced with a solid beige one.
So everybody can have their rank backed onto MTP provided it is the rank insignia as issued I.e. the blue one.
Thats bullying plain and simple - what you need is another officer keeping an eye out for you to tell them to jog on.
The situation for cadets and SNCO/WO is clear enough but the wording and rules for officers has never been good enough, with contradictory statements.
Unless the regulations make an effort to explain the design and requirement for officer rank WITH APPROPRIATE ILLUSTRATIONS this sort of nonsense will continue.
[quote=“incubus” post=12692]The situation for cadets and SNCO/WO is clear enough but the wording and rules for officers has never been good enough, with contradictory statements.
Unless the regulations make an effort to explain the design and requirement for officer rank WITH APPROPRIATE ILLUSTRATIONS this sort of nonsense will continue.[/quote]
Agreed, but it’s worse than that, as the regs are more contradictory for just the junior officers, sadly the ones who are even less of a position to argue.
[quote=“Baldrick” post=12688]
Well, the WO who had the issue with it was in Blues, the WO who told me to wind my neck in in MTP and the third WO who was admiring the fact I had made my own MTP rank slides until I asked him why the first WO was of the opinion that they were incorrect was in DPM.[/quote]
Surely a WO should respectfully inform you if their believe your dress is in error, rather than tell you to wind your neck in?
[quote=“talon” post=12702][quote=“Baldrick” post=12688]
Well, the WO who had the issue with it was in Blues, the WO who told me to wind my neck in in MTP and the third WO who was admiring the fact I had made my own MTP rank slides until I asked him why the first WO was of the opinion that they were incorrect was in DPM.[/quote]
Surely a WO should respectfully inform you if their believe your dress is in error, rather than tell you to wind your neck in?[/quote]
I was told to wind my neck in when I explained that my rank slides are in fact blue.
As a Fg Off, if a warrant officer ever uttered the phrase “wind your neck in” I can assure you that the phrase “feet wouldn’t touch the ground” would apply to my response!
I will admit that I have been a bit misleading. I was paraphrasing when I said ‘wind my neck in.’ But that was the tenor of the argument. I was not to argue with the warrant officers as to how the dress regulations which apply to me in particular are to be interpreted.
[quote=“Baldrick” post=12703][quote=“talon” post=12702][quote=“Baldrick” post=12688]
Well, the WO who had the issue with it was in Blues, the WO who told me to wind my neck in in MTP and the third WO who was admiring the fact I had made my own MTP rank slides until I asked him why the first WO was of the opinion that they were incorrect was in DPM.[/quote]
Surely a WO should respectfully inform you if their believe your dress is in error, rather than tell you to wind your neck in?[/quote]
I was told to wind my neck in when I explained that my rank slides are in fact blue.[/quote]
Sounds like these three WOs are exactly the kind of small-minded idiots we would be better of without!
I find it hard to tolerate this sort of stupidity normally, but I find it even more offensive when it’s from senior ranks.
Peronally, I always tend to feel that if I as a FS know a more senior WO/Officer’s job better than they do, then they shouldn’t be in the post.
I’m obviously by no means alone! There are plenty of other SNCOs who are able to understand the regulations and apply them correctly. Why are WOs like this even alowed to exist?
I don’t think this needs to be a personal attack on the three WOs in question. The issue isn’t with them, it’s the contradiction in the dress regs. Simply, under para 0427 does ‘appropriate’ mean blue, or does it mean ‘matching the host garment?’
as long as that’s unclear such arguments will continue.
[quote=“Baldrick” post=12716]I don’t think this needs to be a personal attack on the three WOs in question. The issue isn’t with them, it’s the contradiction in the dress regs. Simply, under para 0427 does ‘appropriate’ mean blue, or does it mean ‘matching the host garment?’
as long as that’s unclear such arguments will continue.[/quote]
Fog Off & Plt Off Rank slides are always worn with an appropriately coloured backing material. If they weren’t then why would the Station Tailor at RAF Cranwell sell them in every backing imaginable? Surely if all the junior officers in the RAF were buying incorrect rank slides then the SWO CACWO or whoever would stop their trade in such items?
It would seem our dress regulations for this are taken directly from AP1358:
b. Shoulder Slides for the No 2, 6 and 7 SD & Outerwear. The bottom row of composite braid should be at the base of the strap. For plt off and fg off, the braid should be mounted centrally on a backing material matching the host garment.
c. Rank Slides for (No 3 SD) CS 95 and DCC. Appropriate rank slides are to be worn on the “front rank epaulette” of the CS 95 and desert DP jacket and shirts.
Just added the Gilt VRT pin bit.
The directive that was sent out was to stop officers wearing large DPM sliders with rank braid mounted on and VRT embroidered underneath. FLt Lt and above rank braid does not need to be backed and should be worn directly on the epaulette. Plt Off and Fg Off braid is too small for this and gets crumpled/looks untidy and therefore should be backed on material matching the host garment about the size of a Flt Lt composite tape, Gilt VRT pins then inserted in the correct place. Without backing it is impossible to pin a VRT on to a Plt Off braid!
I would agree wholeheartedly. However, the contradiction comes from this paragraph:
[quote]0221. CS95 Authorised Ensemble. When authorised to wear and except where a specific order of dress has been prescribed through the OC Wg / Wg Ex O / Sqn Ldr CCF HQAC, only the approved CS95 ensemble, as detailed below, is to be worn. Appropriate RAFVR(T) or ATC Insignia must be worn at all times.
Other items of operational clothing issued for specific operations outside the UK are not to be worn in the UK. Illustrations and relevant orders of dress are
detailed at the end of this section. CS95 ensemble comprises :
a. Head-dress. The service issue beret is the only head-dress to be worn, with appropriate hat badge by all ranks.
b. DPM Field Jacket. No shoulder epaulettes, rank slide worn on the front rank epaulette with the appropriate VRT – ATC insignia as issued
c. DPM Lightweight Combat Suit (L/W Jacket & Trousers). No shoulder epaulettes, blue rank slides only are worn on the front rank epaulette.[/quote]
There are a large number of people who see the bit I have highlighted and that’s it we have to wear the rank slides off our jumpers. I would argue, (and have) that for junior officers the braid is blue. That is all we have to wear. What this regulation is designed to prevent is people wearing the subdued MTP slides, or colouring the light blue stripe in green or tan. (I have seen this done)
What we need is the word “appropriate” in para 0427 defined more clearly to clear up the perceived discrepancy with para 0221
EDIT: Ironically, if you applied everything absolutely literally. You would end up with the strange situation whereby a Pilot Officer in Cyprus or Gibraltar could wear tan backed pilot officer braid in no.7, but have to wear blue backed braid in MTP or DPM. This clearly highlights the absurdity of enforcing it that way.