EFAW is, as Talon has already said, 1-day and that wouldn’t be too much a) to ask of a CFAV and b) for Wg’s to deliver on a regular basis. As for the ‘less easy’ qualifications, that is an entirely different thing. First aid is a life-skill. Teaching Airframes, isn’t. Anyway, your Wg could always do what I did in my previous Wg - source a CFAV who was fairly conversant with the subject and get him\her to deliver an Adult MOI incorporating the specialist subject. Not hard, is it? No need to place too much reliance on HQAC and their courses, then.
I don’t think its a question of what you’ve [I]had[/I] to deal with, its what we could [I]potentially[/I] have to deal with on certain occasions. If something major happened and - god forbid - someone died waiting for the emergency services through lack of first aid care, I think that the HSE might end up asking people some very awkward questions. To me, providing first-aid trained members of staff is a part of the duty of care to the cadets and other staff.
Sorry, but he needs to grow a pair. I used to be a bit queasy as a youngster even when someone was sick in front of me but I thought: ‘y’know what? It’s not my blood\entrails\vomit, so why should I worry’ I went on to do a Patrol Medic’s course followed a few years later by a Q-UFAI (First Aid Instructor) course and then a Q-BFA(T) (Battlefield First Aid Trainer). I now deliver the range of first aid qualifications in civilian life and also teach First Aid Trainers.
GHE2 - it’s not difficult. For a change, why don’t you try knocking some of the hurdles down as opposed to putting them up whenever you encounter some perceived shortfall at Wg\Rgn\HQAC level?
I’ve seen / heard a few people say that 'we have loads of First Aid Qualified Cadets, so where is the need for staff training?
My response is simple. This is a life saving skill, that at its most important, could see the first aider trying and failing to save someone, be that a staff member or a fellow cadet.
I would not want to inflict that responsibility and trauma on a Cadet, nor would I want to see them standing up before the Coroner trying to justify the treatment they did or didn’t give.
Staff run this organisation, and though one of the main aims is to let the cadets and NCOs think they do, our remit is to keep it all legal and above all safe, and we should always be able to step in when the going gets tough.
I use cadet first aiders, and let them ‘lead the treatment’ when there is a monir injury, and cadets neeed a plaster doling out, or their bruised extremity running under cold water, but I am aware of the situation, and their planned course of action, and am happy everything is under control. I would not be expecting one to have to start CPR on their friend and fellow cadet, if there was a member of staff present.
DofE and other indirectly supervised activities are of course slightly different, but I can’t imagine how it would feel to stand helplessly by as a staff member, witnessing this scene.
First Aid training for staff should be something given equal weight to the BASIC course, and significantly more than protecting information on an annual H&S refresher.
[quote=“mike whiskey” post=18683]This is a life saving skill, that at its most important, could see the first aider trying and failing to save someone, be that a staff member or a fellow cadet.
I would not want to inflict that responsibility and trauma on a Cadet, nor would I want to see them standing up before the Coroner trying to justify the treatment they did or didn’t give. [/quote]
Do we have documented precedents for casual first aiders (which is what the majority of first aiders are) being held to account in a Coroner’s Court? As long as you do what is within the remit of your training/comfort zone I couldn’t see anyone getting that excited. Even then if it went OK no one would be that fussed. Well no one that is with the exception of some shinies at HQAC and all points between.
If I felt as a first aider I could be held to account for my actions I wouldn’t do anything for anyone outside my family and closest friends. As I feel they would appreciate my efforts regardless of outcome.
If a cadet was doing something you wouldn’t barge in along the lines of I’m an adult and take over, offer to help, if needed, but not seek to take over. That’s for the paramedics to do. So what if as a member of staff you feel/felt helpless, we can’t be all things to all people. If in this instance you’ve not had any first aid training or what you have leaves you without the confidence to do anything, that’s life.
Why is it, and I obviously don’t know if other youth organisations are the same, we are increasingly scared or made to feel scared of our own shadows? With this mindset ‘pushed’ by our lords and ladies and supported by comments like above, is it no wonder that we struggle to get anyone other than ex-cadets as staff. Even then a proportion of them lose the will.
[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=18688]Do we have documented precedents for casual first aiders (which is what the majority of first aiders are) being held to account in a Coroner’s Court? As long as you do what is within the remit of your training/comfort zone I couldn’t see anyone getting that excited. Even then if it went OK no one would be that fussed. Well no one that is with the exception of some shinies at HQAC and all points between.
If I felt as a first aider I could be held to account for my actions I wouldn’t do anything for anyone outside my family and closest friends. As I feel they would appreciate my efforts regardless of outcome[/quote]
What I said was that if we didn’t train our people and someone died as a result of no first aid being given, the HSE would ask questions of HQAC, not the individual.
In my opinion, its better to do something rather than nothing and most - if not all - first aid trained personnel will do [I]something[/I] in the event. I kind of get the impression from what you’re saying that you’d rather let someone die than act to help them.
I disagree. The first impulse of most human beings is to help others in need, not stand back and ponder the ‘mindsets of our lords and ladies’ and then decide to walk away because it just isn’t worth the hassle.
i’m with Gunner on this - the most serious injury i’ve had to deal with in the cadets was a broken femur on a wing training day at an RAF Station: bone sticking out of trousers, blood everywhere, wild, uncontrolable pain and screaming that froze the blood.
i would not want a child to have to deal with that.
i have, away from cadets, attempted to give aid to a man who died right in front of me. i was 30, i was big and ugly, i had seen gore and loss and i thought i was desensitised to it, but i still - 9 years later - have significant feelings of guilt and inadequacy about my actions in seeking, and failing, to save his life. in truth that young man could never have survived his injuries even if they had happened outside the finest hospital in the western world at 10.30 am on a monday morning - but that doesn’t make me feel much better about my failure even now. then i was in peices. in my view, any organisation which allows a situation where a child could be the one having to take the lead in such a situation and be loaded with its emotional after-effects needs to give itself a good, hard shake.
I have been doing an annual first aid course associated with my aviation job. Whilst some different items are included in the syllabus each year, we cover CPR every time - & we have the luxury of de-fibs in the airborne office.
Had to do CPR about 18 months ago at Bisley, not to a cadet, but a retired gent who collapsed in the middle of a shoot.
Three of us (the other 2 were nurses!) did full CPR procedure for about 20 mins until the ambulance staff could take over; there were no life signs. A quick zap of the de-fib activated his ticker & off he went to hospital. I spoke with him about a week later when he was discharged. Oh, as a result of a little kicking & screaming, the NRA now have a de-fib on-site.
My wife, also in aviation (so does annual first aid refresher) saved a baby from choking in a shop. I could quote other incidents. I’m very proud that my cadet son has moved onward to his “green badge” first aid qualification.
First aid should be an essential (mandatory) skill. Don’t take the soft option, take the best route to get all staff familiar/qualified; a few hrs a week at cadet events is a very short “exposure” compared to the chances of needing first aid skills for the rest of the time!
I’ve been a first aider for 26 years, but that was largely personal choice, I still work with people who back then declined and have never shown any interest in first aid and it would be pointless in making them do any such training.
Also in any situation in any area you can only do what you can do and feeling helpless, well, that’s part of life and as I said we as staff can’t be all things to all people in the ATC or real world.
There will be people in the modern ATC who will regard it as a box-ticking exercise like so many other things. I have got staff looking to help out at Wing activities, not because they have a burning desire or interest, but purely to tick a box.
Why not make swimming and personal survival / lifesaving skils compulsory training for staff in the Corps? We take cadets to pools and the large majority sit their helpless to intervene and relying on others if it goes wrong. I regard being able to swim as a key life/ personal survival skill and social skill, aside from the health benefits. For our peace of mind all of our kids did all of the swimming stages and two carried on and did lifesaving and one did a stint a poolside poseur. Cost us a small fortune but as parents we felt it was worth it.
Why not make counselling training compulsory for all staff? The list could go on and all equally as valid in their own way as first aid, but not as cheap. That for me is the key point here, cost, first aid can be done in house and at little/no cost. Whereas the other things would have a huge cost implication.
Yes, why don’t we make it compulsory to make people undergo lifeguard training, courses for counselling and while we’re at it, lets get them to do a painting & decorating course - that will save SERFCA a fortune!
The point here is, GHE2, what are our training [I]priorities?[/I] First aid surely has to be quite high up that priority list because it is a skill that would be more in demand than that of lifesaving in a swimming pool. Besides, you go to a pool and the pool should provide trained lifeguards.
If I were the Cmdt, I would mandate training for all CFAV’s in:
BASIC
First Aid
MOI
[I]Before[/I] they then began to specialise into areas such as RCO\SAAI\Model-making\Admin etc. Surely, those three subjects are the [I]basic[/I] requirements of any CFAV in any cadet force?
To me its pointless for uniformed staff and Civilian INSTRUCTORS not to be able to risk assess or understand the basic requirements of child protection.
To me its pointless for uniformed staff and Civilian INSTRUCTORS not to be able to administer basic first aid to a child in their charge.
To me its pointless for uniformed staff and Civilian INSTRUCTORS not to be able to teach, especially as the clue is in their title.
If potential staff don’t want to do all three sets of courses, then they should be pointed in the direction of the nearest scout hut.
Our training priorities should primarily cover the classification (badges) training syllabus and ensure that all staff are able to deliver that, and then build on that. IF we were SJA/BRC then first aid would be the priority.
Unless I’ve missed something first aid doesn’t form any part of a classification badge training. It was until the mid 90s IIRC when it was withdrawn completely.
We seem to have a training system that is confused, directionless and is full of faddy empire builders all wanting us to do something that will give them to something to rule over, develop and keep a job, until they disappear and the next incimbent will say something else. I don’t think for one minute that the idea of ALL staff being first aid trained is being pushed for altruistic reasons and will become just another stick to beat us with.
[quote]Gunner wrote: If I were the Cmdt, I would mandate training for all CFAV’s in:
BASIC
First Aid
MOI
Before they then began to specialise into areas such as RCO\SAAI\Model-making\Admin etc. Surely, those three subjects are the basic requirements of any CFAV in any cadet force?
To me its pointless for uniformed staff and Civilian INSTRUCTORS not to be able to risk assess or understand the basic requirements of child protection.
To me its pointless for uniformed staff and Civilian INSTRUCTORS not to be able to administer basic first aid to a child in their charge.
To me its pointless for uniformed staff and Civilian INSTRUCTORS not to be able to teach, especially as the clue is in their title.
[/quote]
:worthy:
We have tried to down this route in our Wing (to get ahead of the curve, since we believe that this will become mandatory soon anyway …a first aid requirement certainly will, to answer the OP), and you would not believe the wailing and knashing of teeth.
We (the ATC) are wayyyyyy behind the curve in this respect. The ACF, and even the SCC, are way out in front of us.
Yes, but when we look at what we need to have in place to actually allow the squadron to operate on an evening (and thereby allow the classification training to take place) we need to consider the level of first aid cover needed.
Taking a sensible view and making a reasonable assessment of the level of risk associated with routine squadron activities it seems obvious to me that the unit should require 1 designated “first aider” available and the level of qualification they require in such a low-risk environment need be no more than an “appointed person” with the ability to deal with major issues and call an ambulance.
Of course, the easiest way to ensure that you always have a member of staff with that training available is to give all members of staff that training as a minimum. If you can’t do that, then the unit can only open if a suitably trained staff member is there.
Requiring everybody to hold AFA or equivalent is overkill and unattainable without drastic changes to our staff induction and training. It does have other advantages (and I’ll always recommend that people seek to improve their FA skills) but in many ways it is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.
The only thing against compulsory first aid training I can come up with is that even as an FAAW I am still only trained to stop injuries getting worse until the real pro’s arrive. (and the sympathetic ear, and empathy of course)
By far the majority of incidents at Sqn and local activity level are ‘not feeling well’, ‘headache’ and sports injuries, all of which we pretty much bounce back to parents or hospital if anything more than a sit down, rest, or have a glass of water is needed.
Maybe Activity First Aid trains for sports injury assessment to be able to diagnose if the cadet is a wimp, has a sprain, or has broken something, but FAAW doesnt.
I do worry about ‘First Aid Training’ being looked on as meaning people have a greater degree of expertise than they really do by the ‘public at large’.
Compulsory Heart Start for all - absolutely and repeated every couple of years as it is a life skill that everyone should have some familiarity with just in case. But being able to give parents comfort (or impression) that we are highly qualified close to paramedics - no thanks.
Just my view (now to get some ice for my wrists after typing for this long, damn that RSI…!) :whistle:
[quote=“GHE2”]Our training priorities should primarily cover the classification (badges) training syllabus and ensure that all staff are able to deliver that, and then build on that. IF we were SJA/BRC then first aid would be the priority.
Unless I’ve missed something first aid doesn’t form any part of a classification badge training. It was until the mid 90s IIRC when it was withdrawn completely[/quote]
My, you have really missed the point, haven’t you? We’re talking about STAFF being first aid trained, NOT cadets.
Really? I don’t know what happens in your Wg and I also have no time for empire builders but I’m sorry, I fail to see any merit in your argument for NOT having staff first aid trained. What you [I]are[/I] putting up is a smokescreen using your Wing personalities and squeamish boy as examples not to.
Funny, my FAAW training has always included strains, sprains and fractures.
None of the posters on here are trying to give that impression at all. I think what [I]would[/I] give comfort to parents is knowing that if anything untoward happens, their child is in good hands and is being dealt with by a qualified first-aider who knows when to summon professional help. Both of my sons were Air Cadets and whenever they went on activities, I knew that there were sufficient first-aid qualified staff present and it certainly put my mind at rest.
I am with Gunner on this. First Aid is a life saving skill.
I am currently away with work and unable to make a decent post but echo Gunner on every point.
Its a skill everyone should learn! I know people who are nominted first aiders at work who havent got a clue. It needs to be done and kept up to date.
Peoples lives can indeed be in the balance. Car crash on the way to gliding. Cadet hit by a car. Fellow staff members taking heart attacks.
Its a vital and very much needed skill and should be taken seriously. You could save your mates life.
we need a building with four walls, a roof and bogs before we need a flight simulator. we need staff we know aren’t nonces and thieves before we need great leaders. we need staff who can look after the children in their care - both First Aid and CP wise - before we need staff who understand the principles of flight.
the subject matter we teach the kids is an irrelevence, it could be basket weaving or film studies instead of PoF or Air Nav, or Drill - what matters is that the kids are safe, once we have that sorted out we worry about what we’re going to do with them for the evening.
we are, at the crux of what we do, in Loco Parentis. we act, for as long as the children are with us, as their parents. i’d view any CFAV who refused to undertake FA training in the same way i’d veiw a parent who refused to undertake FA training - not fit to be a parent, and therefore not fit to be in Loco Parentis.
to me, its a fundamental part of the job, as important as not being a nonce. not prepared to sign up to it? theres the door…
JM, do you have any reference for that? What about the following taken from the TG21 Consent Form:
[I]“Cadet Below the Age of 18:
I give full consent to the above named cadet to attend the activity detailed above. I understand that he/she will be subject to Air Cadets care and discipline and must conform to appearance standards required. Permission is given to participate in all appropriate activities, I give permission to the Course Commander or his appointed representative to act as the person in loco parentis should he/she have to undergo medical treatment including any emergency operation to which I am unable physically to give consent.”[/I]
My understanding is, from when this came up a few years a go, in loco parentis is a legal term in the UK. It is why there are laws against teachers, who are in loco parentis, having relationships with pupils, but there is no law for cadets and cadet staff. I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure in loco parentis was enacted under an education act, which does not cover ATC. The original definition was only wards of the court, but was extended by and education bill (unsure if which one).
I stand to be corrected by any more learned friends.