Compulsory first aid training

Interestingly, a quick google search shows the ACO contradicts itself on the issue. ACP17 says we are, the code of conduct says we don’t. Ref:ACP20 PI no 501, ACATI Instruction No 3. The ONLY exception given is in regards to giving the OK for urgent medical treatment.

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I think this is one for our learned friend, BTi!..

Persons in a position of trust are “in loco parentis”. We are not in that category in the legal definition, so we use signed parental consent to enact “in loco parentis” for the date range of the activity.

/law

Thank you, Neil.

If I remember correctly, doesn’t the consent form say we are only in loco parentis when emergency medical treatment is required and we have to give consent in lieu of the parent?

my understanding of the concept of in loco parentis is that applies to any adult looking after any child who isn’t theirs - it applies if some other kids come to yours for tea, it applies if you watchover other peoples kids at the park while their parents nip to the coffee shop to have a pee and grab the pair of you a brew, it applies in any situation where you are looking after a child while their parent is not there, regardless of whether theres a consent form or a verbal agreement, or whether you take the child on a skiing trip to Germany or down the park for 20 minutes.

its force is to give the other child the same care that a reasonable parent would to their own child.

i’m no legal bod, but i’ve done a bit of searching and i can’t find much in the way of legal caveats - the only one is that the care should the same care, if the adult happens to be inexperienced then as long as what he does is consistant with what he’d do with his own children its not a problem if he’s not brilliant with other peoples - i fear perhaps that all the caveats that people are coming up how it doesn’t apply to us have no basis in law, just chinese whispers that have been floating around…

would it surprise me if, like the Army Legal Service, the ACO’s lawyers are from the bottom end of the legal quality pyramid? no, it wouldn’t…

E2A: is there any case law/precedent on the definition of in loco parentis in the UK? i’d be interested to see what it said - in fact, i’d be far more interested in what judges had said than in what the cheapest lawyer the MOD could find had said…

[quote=“Gunner” post=18718] [quote=“GHE2”]Our training priorities should primarily cover the classification (badges) training syllabus and ensure that all staff are able to deliver that, and then build on that. IF we were SJA/BRC then first aid would be the priority.

Unless I’ve missed something first aid doesn’t form any part of a classification badge training. It was until the mid 90s IIRC when it was withdrawn completely[/quote]
My, you have really missed the point, haven’t you? We’re talking about STAFF being first aid trained, NOT cadets. [/quote]
Not unless I’ve misunderstood that staff with FA tickets are expected / supposed to deliver FA training to cadets. I’ve instructed cadets but never got excited about badges. But I stand by my POV that our priorities for staff ergo cadets should be “air-minded” as that is where the deficiencies, in my experience over the last 3 decades, are.

Really? I don’t know what happens in your Wg and I also have no time for empire builders but I’m sorry, I fail to see any merit in your argument for NOT having staff first aid trained. What you [I]are[/I] putting up is a smokescreen using your Wing personalities and squeamish boy as examples not to.[/quote]
This ‘directive’ seems to have eminated from HQAC not Wings and that’s where the confusion starts and spreads like bindweed.
There is nothing wrong with having staff first aid trained, but those who want to. It would be better to have a proportion who actually want to do it rather than everyone. We don’t or haven’t insisted that ALL staff trained on other peripheral areas, because people pick and choose what their areas are.
We get comments like putting the air back in air cadets and that IMO starts in the classroom. But this is not or doesn’t seem to be a priority despite the noise made. Let be honest if this idea hadn’t come from HQAC, it wouldn’t have come up.

utterly, utterly the wrong way round.

we need a building with four walls, a roof and bogs before we need a flight simulator. we need staff we know aren’t nonces and thieves before we need great leaders. we need staff who can look after the children in their care - both First Aid and CP wise - before we need staff who understand the principles of flight. [/quote]
We use DBS to check if people are known to the authorities for anything remotely indicating insuitablity to work with children.
CP is inadequate based on speaking to mates of mine who work in children’s services and shown them what we get training wise and ACP 4, and they’ve said, we should hope that nothing really, really serious comes up, as we’d be out of our depth and in serious danger of breeching confidentiality.

I would love to see the response from a parent if you were doing basket-weaving and film studies over what we should be.

[quote=“angus” post=18721] we are, at the crux of what we do, in Loco Parentis. we act, for as long as the children are with us, as their parents. i’d view any CFAV who refused to undertake FA training in the same way i’d veiw a parent who refused to undertake FA training - not fit to be a parent, and therefore not fit to be in Loco Parentis.

to me, its a fundamental part of the job, as important as not being a nonce. not prepared to sign up to it? theres the door…[/quote]
One feels that you’re not a parent. If you are I bet you’re fun at the “school gate”. You couldn’t do all the courses or gain all the qualifications you need or might be percieved as needing as a parent, depending on which newspaper you read or thinking in the latest reports issuing from academics and “experts”.

My understanding is that consent is generally not required for emergency medical treatment when there is no one actually able to give consent.

My understanding is that consent is generally not required for emergency medical treatment when there is no one actually able to give consent.[/quote]
That works for everyone. If in the doctor’s opinion you need it in an emergency you get regardless of consenting to it.

You’re welcome, Alan. :?:

This is only a quick reply, so don’t have time to post the back-up - but - until the recent revision, ACP4 gave a definition of being “in loco parentis”, and stated that we (staff) were, if emergency medical treatment were required, etc.

That has now been removed, along with all reference to staff being “in loco parentis” …because we aren’t (as others have said). Being “in loco parentis” is a legal term which give such a person the legal authority of a parent; and in our case, parental responsibility remains with the parent, and not with us.

ACP4 now gives a broader definition of “duty of care”, as a responsibility for the safety and welfare of a child; as part of the description of the ACO’s supervisory care regime. This definition sums up duty of care as “acting as a reasonable parent” - but this does not mean that we are in “loco parentis”, legally.

In a medical emergency, Doctors have the lawful authority to act to save life in all circumstances; so the previous ACP4 reference to staff being in loco parentis in such a situation was incorrect and misleading …and thus it has been removed.

Cheers
BTI

No one is ‘held to account’ by the coroner. His job is only to establish the facts in the case of unnatural or unexplained deaths.
I would still rather not see cadets on the witness stand. Equally do you as staff want to explain why you stood by as a child dealt with the issue.

This is a fundamental, and frankly not terribly difficult skill. I see no reason at all not to insist on a minimum level for all staff, and for the Corps to make sure we provide it.

MW

First Aid Vs Duty of Care Vs Loco Parentis

I have always taken the view that regardless of the legal stand point, morally, we should alsways do what a reasonable parent would do, and what takes the interests of those in our charge into account.

The old chestnut for me is where staff will refuse to let cadets take simple over the counter painkillers because ‘I can’t prescribe for you, I’m a First Aider not a doctor’.

This might be the guidance for First aiders dealing with a stranger in the street, but If I am responsible for a child then I will do what I would do for my own, or any other child in my family. I will do all I reasonably can to make sure that the medicine will do no harm (ie asking, checking with parents or on their consent form for allergies) and then ensuring the medication is taken appropriately and at the correct dose.

I consider denying anyone appropriate pain relief to be a cruel and unusual practice.

I think people sometimes get overly defensive and forget the value of good old fashioned uncommon ‘common sense’.

MW

If it’s a personal first aid kit and it’s their usual painkillers carry on. Mind you I thought this was why we get cadets to carry first aid kits on AT expeds. My cadets are told to take their usual ‘headache’ pills on all things of more than one day’s duration as with any medication they might use ordinarily. At camps we’ve had ‘spare’ inhalers and diabetic equipment all labelled, just in case.
OR you could follow what we did when our daugthers were at school, which is we wrote a letter saying our daughters could take the painkillers we provided to cope with period pains after they stopped my eldest taking them as they thought she was ‘popping’ something, or what the school might give them. The other option was they stayed off school probably once a month for a few days.
Not being funny I can’t see why you’d be dishing out painkillers at the sqn, if they can’t cope with a headache for a little while they are not going to cope generally and if it’s that bad phone mum/dad and get them to pick them up.

I am thinking of events longer than a single parade night, eg day or more away.

Also there is a world of difference between over the counter remedies, and prescription medication. I am not about to start carrying ‘spare’ inhalers or anything else! However, safe custody of a cadets individual medication is entirely sensible.

MW

I’ve known cadets take spare items and give them to staff for safe keeping and for staff to ensure that cadets take their meds, especially those cadets labelled with behaviour disorders, normally because parents ask and the staff know the results if the kids don’t.
As for other things, as I say cadets are told to take their own ‘over the counter’ remedies, just like staff would. I have a pack of paracetamol in my desk at work, in the car and at the squadron.
Isn’t a personal first aid kit including preferred medication part of kit lists when you’re away for a few days?

Another “well done” for a cadet.

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