MODS any chance of a thread split from You know what makes me laugh?
Everyone please keep it civil!
It made me smile watching the news this morning all about the closing down of parliament and the limp wristed, soft handshake non leaving the EU mob moaning about it. Philip Hammond said it is undemocratic, not really, what is undemocratic is wets like him not accepting the will of the people, because they didnāt like it.
Another thing which has made me smile is in France theyāve been destroying speed cameras and the French govt have been moaning about the cost of replacing them and the loss of income through fines. Easy solution donāt have them in the first place.
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i donāt think it is undemocratic to have an opinion. nor do i think it is undemocratic to have an opinion which is opposing to the majority of peopleā¦
I voted remain but just want this done and dusted, however when it comes to no deal we have no idea if itās the will of the people or not. In the referendum all leave campaigners promised s great deal and ruled out no deal when it was put to them. That was the basis on which a large number of leave voters voted. Every leaver I know says that if the choice had been remain in the EU or leave with no deal they would have voted remain. Extrapolate that across the electorate and Iām sure there is no democratic mandate for crashing out with no deal.
This particular action by Dominic Cummings (we all know heās really the one running the country) will have even wider ranging consequences for our constitution. This is a serious breach of constitutional conventions and you can be sure that Parliament will, in the next 12 months be enacting legislation to take the unfettered power to prorogue away from the executive, if they do that then lots of other powers are up for grabs. Parliament doesnāt like an overeaching executive, not saying the Roundheads and cavaliers are due a rematch but there is shortly to be a major power struggle, and I bet the supreme court will also want to extend their power at the same time.
This action also makes it far more likely that the UK will break up. Certainly the NI peace process will be strained and if the troubles return we all know who will be responsible for the deaths.
So in summary, whilst I agree we need to try and leave this method is not just a joke, itās dangerous to the integrity of our country.
Iām in several minds about it - I voted remain, but I think that referendums and elections have to be respected, otherwise madness followsā¦
Iām uncomfortable with āclosing down parliamentā, not least because I know how it would look from the outside - like some tinpot South American toilet - on the other hand the ballot paper of 2016 said nothing about a deal, TH won (just) the 2017 GE emphatically saying that no deal was better than a bad deal, and parliament itself overwhelmingly voted to enact the result of the referendum with no proviso being made that it was dependant on a deal that was was acceptable to parliament.
Even though I would prefer it if we stayed in, Iām afraid I have little belief in the good faith of many of the āarch remainersā - I simply donāt believe that there is a leaving deal they would accept, I think theyād be quite happy to revoke A50 without a referendum if they could get away with it, and I think get are massively hypocritical in their ārespect the 48%ā cry - Iām convinced that had remain won by 52% they wouldnāt remotely respect that 48% of the electorate didnāt want to be members of the EU, and that it would be full steam ahead on every aspect of EU integration - indeed they would declare that they had a mandate for not just continued membership, but for ever greater union.
Our politics havenāt been broken by brexit, theyāve been broken by having politicians.
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Thatās probably the biggest thing to come out of this debacle. Our politicians are now career politicians straight out of uni into politics with little or no real life experience to get an understanding of what normal people live like.
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i would say our politics has been cracked open by Brexit to expose the āpoliticiansā - but even then i donāt agree that is fair.
it is such a black and white issue and so equal in the position there is no way to keep everyone happy and donāt expect PM Johnson will fair well out of this, if only because ~50% of the nation donāt want what heās aiming for.
As cliche as it sounds, the county does need bringing together and uniting as one. but as long as Brexit exists, be that the process of leaving or the aftermath and how that is dealt with* i feel there will be great controversy in UK Govn.
Political commentators (and Pro-leave campaigners) indicate that weāll see the effects of Brexit for the next 10 years, most clearly in the economic state of the country, but i think weāll see it politically too.
Weāve seen Cameron loose out, and recently May.
I am not convinced Johnson is going to come out as a shining star from this without winning a General Election, but that seems unlikely, so whoever his successor is, be that a new Tory Leader and PM, or a new Tory leader as the leader of the opposition (providing the Tories gain enough seats to be considered the opposition) with a Labour or other party PM they will have to pick up the pieces of the Johnson deal/no deal. having listened to enough commentators and correspondents in the news, post Brexit is where the work was supposed to really start in gaining new (non-EU) deals with the rest of the world as this leaving deal was going to be easy.
I am not sure how the next 5 years of politics can operate without dealing with the Brexit topic, but being so black and white, and the near even in the split either side of the fence, it will take at least 5 years and the new deals agreed internationally before we can say brexit is a none issue in politics.
*let us not forget, with or without a deal, there are still 100s of trade deals to be completed with each individual country and nation outside of the EU which are still to be considered. Parliament has been concentrating so hard on what Brexit should look like and our relationship with the EU, that there has been little effort in how our relationship will look like with the rest of the world, and then of course agreeing new deals with the EU as a non-EU member state
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The problem as stated it that all of the leading Politicians are a disgrace.
Boris only believes or cares about 2 things Boris Johnson and the Conservative Party and Iāll let you decide for yourself which he prefers.
Corbyn doesnāt have a plan, he is actually more pro-Brexit than Johnson and is only speaking out now in a cynical vote grab.
John Bercow is an absolute disgrace to his office, he is supposed to be apolitical and he very definitely isnāt and has taken sides.
I honestly donāt think that Boris wants a No Deal, I think he is playing for a Single Issue General Election and that everything heās doing is designed to stop the Brexit Party from splitting the Conservative Vote. If there is a vote of no confidence the party will likely deselect the majority of Conservative MPās who vote for it, Boris can then run for election on a āwe will deliver Brexit and if you give me a majority Iāll make another attempt to make a deal with the EU and if they wonāt deal we will just leaveā platform. Labour has the issue that a lot of its constituencies were pro-Brexit, if he wins a genuine majority and is willing to leave without a deal the EU will almost certainly have to renegotiate the deal.
Alternatively a Queens Speech opens the option of reintroducing Theresa Mayās Deal which is the point that Ruth Davidson has made today.
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If we fail to leave and do like the simpering idiot remainers want, we wonāt go back on the same terms and we will get well and truly screwed.
As my dad has said we were sold joining in the 70s purely on a trade basis, not what has developed. But when joined we lost all the benefits of trading with the Commonwealth and things from the Commonwealth went up in price.
I feel we should have left the EEC in the 80s, when federalisation of the EEC was being mooted with a single currency and greater political control exerted.
What I do not understand is what is wrong with us returning to being a self determining nation state? We do all our own trade deals and if that means we do things to undermine āBrusselsā, because we havenāt got to try and get 27 other countries all with their own reasons and ways of doing things, then so be it. We are still an island nation with large port infrastructures, which I am sure we could use to our advantage. We are still a major financial centre in spite of the French and Germans efforts to try and get in on it.
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Because thatās going to get people on your sideā¦
Not true.
You mean the currency we donāt have to join?
Please try harder to persuade me of negatives we will be ditching or positives we will receive.
My favourite game is to ask brexiteers to name one law they think the EU has imposed on us that we can rescind once we leave. Iām yet to find anyone who can name a real law, not some myth perpetuated by the daily fail.
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I donāt like the look of the proposed Euro Armed Forces, with the like of junkers / some other euro leader sending them out do stuff
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it boiled my yesterday listening to R4 PM programme introduce ābalanceā by reactions from leavers and remainers to the late Johnson decision - all the āleaversā replies indicates āgood, this will speed up our departure and give us chance to make up our own lawsā¦ā (or words to that effect)
there are far more reasons to leave than āmake our own lawsā if only because we always have been able to!
Iām not an idiot so dont tarnish me with that brush. I voted remain and would again in a second referendum. purely because It will damage my future!
The consequences for me are more serious than you may think. I work for a company that trades across europe and my job role is funded by a cash lump sum from the european union for trading across europeā¦if we leave the EU my job and my quality of life is greatly at risk as a direct result as my job is at risk. So for me the situation the UK is in will more than likely turn my life upside down.
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For me itās not about rescinding laws, itās about being fully self-determining as a nation and not urinating money away as a club fee, with the most appalling terms if you want to ābreak the contractā. When we have asked for things to removed or change from the euās set of items laughingly referred to as āthe dealā, their ānonā or āneinā has been more resounding that de Gaulleās constant ānonā vetoing in the 60s.
We cannot have trading relationships with countries of our own which isnāt IMO a good thing for a self-respecting nation.
The problems with leaving the eu began by having a PM (May) who didnāt actually believe in it, so she was less than useless and Corbyn who like all socialists is an idealistic chancer. My dad has voted Labour all his life (weāve had some interesting chats), but heās said they are useless in govt as they think the state should control everything and unless you are going to have a dictatorship, itās not going to happen. They donāt understand how business works which is why nationalisation didnāt work and it just become a money bonfire.
When I voted to leave there was at no point a deal mentioned and so I donāt see the need for one.
I - who voted remain - think there are very good reasons to be hugely wary of the direction of travel of the EU. Itās a political project and it has political objectives, most of which would be about the centralisation of previously state powers: economic and fiscal powers are the logical end of the single currency, and we have already seen that a single migration/asylum policy is in at least itās embryonic stage in response to the migration crisis. Defence AIS another that occasionally rears its head - Germany has already talked about a European aircraft carrier, and the logical end point of some of the joint logistics/capability programmes that the EDA is currently undertaking is that a number of EU states simply wonāt be able to undertake military operations without the agreement and active cooperation of other states. Itās not difficult to see how in order to avoid this chaotic hodgepodge the EU might look to centralise the decision to use military force.
I donāt read this stuff in the daily mail, Iāve been attached to the EU military staff in Brussels and Iāve close friends who are still involved at an FCO and MOD level - there is an entrenched ideology within the political and CS structures, and within some of the member state delegations attached to the āexternal affairsā and military staff agencies of centralisation of power over foreign policy, defence policy, economic policy and immigration policy.
Itās not all about bananas and thickie racists.
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You clearly didnāt follow any of the campaign then. All the leave leaders were saying theyād get a great deal and ruled out no deal.
Obviously you are the idiot here, not the remainers. You had an opinion and steadfastly refused to actually engage your brain and think things through. (I should add that this is not aimed at all leavers - most of whom their mind up after careful consideration of the facts-just people like Teflon who clearly paid no attention to the facts or campaign)
You really do spout such drivel and I despair for the future of any kids you have a role in shaping as you are so devoid of logic or basic intelligence
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IMHO (always a good start) the issue is that the original question was poorly framed. If it had read something like:
Option 1: Remain , share sovereignty, whatever the cost of membership to the nation and the individual (future cost unknown).
Option 2: Leave, regain sovereignty, whatever the cost to the nation and the individual (future cost unknown).
- Please note we do and will continue to share sovereignty in other areas i.e. NATO and it is unlikely that GB will be able to āgo it aloneā against current or emerging superpowers.
The 52/48 spilt would then be a non-issue as we would have voted on a principle rather than suffering an ongoing debate based on relative economic prostitution (which decision makes us as individuals and as a nation financially better off or worse off). The truth, for me, is that no one actually knows what the economic outcome will be. Some financial outcomes may be more favourable in the short term, others in the medium to long term.
Iām afraid only time and future events will allow historians to comment on what has been. 20:20 hindsight will be wonderful position to start from !!!
Per Ardua
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I had made my decision 30 years before the referendum, when you could see things coming that were too far away from being a trade bloc and there had been nothing to in the following 30 years to make me change my thoughts.
I do not see nor have I ever seen the need for being part of something that is so restrictive in how it operates. The eu could have avoided all of this by giving us concessions when Cameron asked, but no they didnāt. We then had a referendum and the establishment in Westminster and Brussels were caught out by the decision. They thought weād just go with it. Oh so very wrong.
We do not need a deal. We leave and thatās it.
Those that go on about not having no deal and how bad it is do not have a clue. You have to have the option to walk away from anything and no strings.
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I would not bemoan you for voting stay in those circumstances