They are told. If they need to arrange a visit to see for themselves then they should do so.
It is the Squadron OC’s responsibility and he/she may choose to delegate that to a particular SNCO if they see fit. However, I would expect an OC to listen closely to the advice of an SNCO on matters of drill and dress (so long as they can back it up with documentary proof) as this is “traditionally” their role.
[quote=“woatch” post=4125]If they themselves are breaching the standards that is where a Sector NCO or a WWO comes into play.[/quote]I am sure there are many OCs out there well enough versed in the regulations (or capable of reading) who would be able to re-educate an SNCO/WO who has transgressed. Probably fewer actually care though.
[quote=“the fixer” post=4114]If every sqn had a WO(ATC) then that would be best practice. However. that isn’t the case. Therefore, I’d suggest that all SNCO(ATC)s should be responsible for their unit’s dress standards. If he feels that their efforts aren’t making a difference then call in the WWO.
I rarely see my WWO and when I do it’s never on Sqn where it’s easier to let standards slip. This means SNCO(ATC)s should be used as the uniform Stazi :-)[/quote]
As far as I’m concerned, as OC, I have ultimate responsibility for dress (and indeed every other facet of squadron life) on my unit. The fact I delegate functions such as dress to my Sgt ATC does not need to be enforced by a letter to HQAC.
As I said, all uniformed staff should take an active interest in keeping standards (and not just for dres) high.
Agreed. The letter doesn’t ‘ban’ every SNCO or WO bar the WWO from picking up uniform problems.
It would be ridiculous for any staff (Officer, WO, or SNCO) to overlook areas for improvement with the idea that they’re ‘not allowed to say anything because they’re not the WWO’.
However, the defining line is one of attitude.
The individual who thinks “I’m a Senior NCO; I’m going to go and put that officer in his place!” is a bit of a wally.
The one who thinks “There’s a glaring error that person appears to be unaware of, I’ll go and politely offer advice on correcting it” is more likely to get a better reception.
I think that some of the younger/newer/more inexperienced SNCOs take the SNCO vs Officer ‘banter’ a little too seriously.
Certainly an RAF FS or WO with 20 years service will be well placed to advice a young junior officer if they look like a sack of… A Sgt (ATC) with somewhere between 0 and 4 years under their belt is not exactly in the same position.
Too many seem to come back from ATF with an overinflated sense of importance. They immediately try to emulate Mitch. That is understandable, but the subtle difference they often miss is that Mitch has earnt the right to a little banter - he’s been there and done it for long enough.
I get incredibly p*ssed off with the type of SNCO (ATC) who come out from a week at Cranwell with the “It’s my job to tell those silly numpty officers what to do!” attitude.
There are of course some who never grow out of that, and display the same naive attitude as FS and WO.
I remember a joint ex with some CCF on a camp at Cranwell once. The first thing I noticed when I got out of the minibus was a CCF Sqn Ldr with his stable belt on upside down.
I went over, said hello, had a quick chat. Then in a friendly way I politely pointed out the error.
He was perfectly happy to recieve advice, in fact he was positively grateful! Apparently he’d always worn it that way and noone had ever said anything to him (what’s that about?).
Problem solved, everyone happy.
The alternative approach could have been to march over and greet him with a stern “Sir, your belt is upside down! Sort it out please!” - it doesn’t take a genius to imagine what sort of a reaction that would have provoked!
I’d expect the SNCO/WO’s cadre to guide and advice their Officer colleagues should there be any uniform or drill errors (assuming the SNCO/WO is of acceptable standard themselves) however, there is a manner they should conduct this in.
Although, I have been witness to an RSM shouting across a parade square to a Capt to roll his sleeves down. But, the Army way is an interesting style.
As far as I’m concerned, as OC, I have ultimate responsibility for dress (and indeed every other facet of squadron life) on my unit. The fact I delegate functions such as dress to my Sgt ATC does not need to be enforced by a letter to HQAC.
As I said, all uniformed staff should take an active interest in keeping standards (and not just for dres) high.[/quote]
Absolutely right! But I think that OC Wg will still need assurance, through some means, that his Sqns are toeing the line and this is where the Wg WO and Sector Staff should come in.
[quote=“cygnus maximus” post=4157]Absolutely right! But I think that OC Wg will still need assurance, through some means, that his Sqns are toeing the line and this is where the Wg WO and Sector Staff should come in.[/quote]The sector WOs/SNCOs work for the WWO and the WWO works for OC Wing.
If OC wing wishes to have some sort of direct assurance that squadrons are in fact toeing the line then they can have the WWO and his/her team get it done.
[quote=“incubus” post=4159][quote=“cygnus maximus” post=4157]Absolutely right! But I think that OC Wg will still need assurance, through some means, that his Sqns are toeing the line and this is where the Wg WO and Sector Staff should come in.[/quote]The sector WOs/SNCOs work for the WWO and the WWO works for OC Wing.
If OC wing wishes to have some sort of direct assurance that squadrons are in fact toeing the line then they can have the WWO and his/her team get it done.[/quote]
Isn’t that what I said? OC Sqns are responsible for standards on their Sqns, Sector Staff and the Wg WO are the OC Wg’s assurance process?
This is very much the culture that has been implemented by those placed into positions of authority over the years. Empire Building, I think its called.
SNCO’s and WO’s are directly responsible to their respective Squadron Commanders. The Sector post is a job they carry out when the demands of their own units have been met. They do not report directly to the WWO. He doesn’t ‘own’ them. NCO’s in the RAF don’t ‘work’ for the SWO. They are responsible to their Unit Commanders through the internal CoC.
Let’s get away from this nonsense that SNCO’s work for and are responsible to, the WWO, because its simply not true.
[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=4062]I remember being on Wing Parade and the WWO was bemoaning the fact that very few Officers had bulled their shoes, and when he was asked to point out where it said shoes must be bulled, he couldn’t, because it doesn’t. Even as a WO I never bulled my shoes, but through several years of brush polishing they looked a darn sight better than many bulled shoes.
If we are going to have SNCOs operating as described then they have to play by the book and not bring personal foibles into play. Do this and gain respect, come over all holy than thou and expect a rebuke, regardless of whatever edict/diktat comes out of the Ivory Towers.[/quote]
Im sorry but that is really pedantic! it may not say in the dress regs that shoes are to be bulled but its a known fact that when the rest of the military parade in uniform shoes are highly polished/bulled. I doubt a member of the QCS could turn up on Queens guard with a pair of working shoes and say where does it say they must be bulled!!
Its the same as combats, it doesnt say trousers must be tied over the boots or with twisters but you all still do it! (well apart from one SNCO i know who tucks them into the top of his boots and ordered all cadets to as that was his interpertaion of the dress regs!)
Whilst I accept the principal you are alluding to your point itself is ridiculous. Chances are the 20 year old Sgt is just out of uniform after 6/7 years cadet service yet many pilot officers are ex CIs who have either never been in a uniform or were many years prior to their commission. More often than not I find it to be the officers who are lacking in experience and NOT the SNCOs of any rank. Hence why they aren’t known for excellence in drill or dress
As far as this whole topic is concerned, well it’s nonsense. People need to drop their obsession with their own self importance. Very frequently it’s what stops this organisation from being as great as it could be. So if you’re a VR(T) officer who has his cap badge squint, how’s about you thank the person who pointed it out to you and saved you from any potential embarrassment instead of worrying what rank that person is. If the person was polite then who cares if they are a Sgt or a Wing Commander? What difference does it make. A heads up is a heads up. No need to get your back up and demand that person be of a quality that is nigh on impossible (that is if you want to find something wrong then you will) before they dared inform you of a minor uniform discrepancy. Grow up. It’s nothing personal.
Incidentally find it ironic that some people are bunging on about the maturity of SNCOs when it seems to be the officers spitting their dummy about people who are merely trying to help. Sit down lads, SNCOs know how the rank structure works so if they do point out a minor issue with your kit, it’s not because they are under any illusion about your rank, position or responsibilities so don’t feel the need to prove you have more power. We all know that you do.
It depends on how many sets of footwear you want to have hanging around JUST for cadet activities. A pair of shoes for parades and boots for the occasional foray into DPM, is sufficient, having another pair of shoes for high days and holidays, is a nonsense. If that’s what you want to do fine, that’s a personal choice. If I wanted to have a pair of highly bulled shoes for parades, I would, but as in the general scheme of things you’d wear them for about an hour for the parade and then change into something more practical for mincing around after, to avoid getting them too knackered, it’s not even a consideration for me.
I very much expect those in the QCS or anyone involved in ceremonial work have specific footwear, all supplied.
I have to disagree with you there, pedantic or not the dress regs state “highly polished” and i would add “clean” to that.
[quote=“AP1358C”]
0207. Shoes. Highly polished black leather Oxford pattern shoes are to be worn by officers and WO (ATC). All other ranks are to wear DMS shoes[/quote]
it is personal intepretation what is meant by “highly polished” and so providing shoes are clean and there is clear evidence polish has been applied i will not mark a Cadet down as they have conformed to the regulations.
it is an “unwritten rule” that shoes/toe caps will be highly polished and considered the norm.
as for the QCS, every inch of their uniform is geared to being that much more impressive in terms of its condition and so accept they would go to the nth degree
It depends on how many sets of footwear you want to have hanging around JUST for cadet activities. A pair of shoes for parades and boots for the occasional foray into DPM, is sufficient, having another pair of shoes for high days and holidays, is a nonsense. If that’s what you want to do fine, that’s a personal choice. If I wanted to have a pair of highly bulled shoes for parades, I would, but as in the general scheme of things you’d wear them for about an hour for the parade and then change into something more practical for mincing around after, to avoid getting them too knackered, it’s not even a consideration for me.
I very much expect those in the QCS or anyone involved in ceremonial work have specific footwear, all supplied.[/quote]
Err, Officers are issued two pairs of shoes? Oxfords and DMS?
[quote=“Gunner” post=4171]This is very much the culture that has been implemented by those placed into positions of authority over the years. Empire Building, I think its called.[/quote]Actually no, it is called a chain of command.
[quote=“Gunner” post=4171]SNCO’s and WO’s are directly responsible to their respective Squadron Commanders.[/quote]When they are wearing the hats of squadron staff, yes. When they are wearing their secondary hat and carrying out their secondary duties of sector WO/SNCO they report to the WWO.
How staff holding a secondary role juggle their dual responsibilities is entirely up to them.
You seem to be confusing roles with ranks. The SNCO/WO side is certainly not a separate clique under the separate control of the WWO but if any individual of any rank takes on a role which requires them to report directly to somebody outside their normal CoC then, whilst they are carrying out that role, they are no longer the lackey of their Squadron OC.
Two pairs of shoes indeed, because the rubber soled ones are for areas where they are required for H&S.
The role of the WWO is as I understand it to provide guidance to the SNCO Cardre, to be the Wing Commanders Drill and ceremonial SME and to put forward the POV of the SNCO’s in his wing to the Wing Commander.
SNCO’s work for the Officers appointed over them, in our case OC Squadrons.
The tow points not addressed;
Where does the two chinstraps come from?
Why WWO/RWO are allowing rule breaking by the SNCO’s on dress- in fact some of them joining in?
[quote=“asqncdr” post=4209]Where does the two chinstraps come from?[/quote]It appears to be an affectation copied from the QCS or possibly from others. I’m led to believe that the strap which comes with the hat isn’t apparently meant to be used to keep the hat on the head in windy weather but is a design feature. To actually keep the hat on you can fit a second strap.
I really don’t get the type of second strap which is worn down at the back of the head.
[quote=“asqncdr” post=4209]Why WWO/RWO are allowing rule breaking by the SNCO’s on dress- in fact some of them joining in?[/quote]It could be lack of understanding, lack of caring, lack of clarity, mixed messages from above or general incompetence.
