Atc warrant officers the custodians of dress standards?

Personally I think we just need to get the balance right. Where the RAF don’t care about certain minor deviations, why should we?
There are things worth going to task over, and there are those which aren’t.

PM inbound.

Meh. Put it in the file next to yours. B)

No they haven’t. I’ve seen the letter too and the delegated authority ends at WWO’s. It says nothing about the authority being further delegated to SNCO’s.

I suggest that the SNCO cadre gets their own house in order FIRST before trying to set about others. Get rid of the double chin-straps, remove the ammo boots, leave the pace sticks at home and look AND ACT the part. Then - just then - might everyone take you seriously.

For the record, any trainee badass SNCO who wants to take me to task over my standards of dress had bloody well better conform to every dress reg in the book before he starts on me.[/quote]

challenge accepted! hope you are well versed in mine! haha :evil:

Are you a WWO?

And where’s your SD Cap when you wear your (Army) No.2’s?.. :whistle:

[quote=“Gunner” post=4084]Are you a WWO?

And where’s your SD Cap when you wear your (Army) No.2’s?.. :whistle:[/quote]

probably the sameplace your number 2’s are!! :woohoo:

Everyone who wears the Queen’s uniform, of whatever hue, has a duty to wear it properly. If they do not, then they should expect to be picked up by anyone for their poor standards. We assume that it is the job of our WOs and SNCOs to maintain standards among the other uniformed staff, but we should all look to ourselves first and be prepared to take criticism constructively, provided of course, that the criticism comes from someone whose standards are beyond reproach.

Absolutely.

I must have touched a nerve with a lot of SNCO\WO’s with my post. My karma has gone from -22 to -33 since 2052hrs!

The truth obviously hurts.

Re: my declining karma, boys - do you really think mine is the face of concern? All I ask is that you get me in front of Nimrod. Don’t disappoint me now…

If your wing has sector NCOs like mine then surely they have a responsibility to ensure EVERY member of uniformed staff wears the uniform correctly. It’s not about VRT vs ATC is it?

And you are right before ANYONE pulls someone up for incorrect dress standards their own personal standards need to be top notch!

[quote=“woatch” post=4099]And you are right before ANYONE pulls someone up for incorrect dress standards their own personal standards need to be top notch![/quote]Very idealistic but nonsense of course.

Those charges with maintaining dress standards in the ATC should strive to ensure that their own uniform is beyond reproach as it serves as an example. However you must remember that perfection is unachievable so you need to adopt a sensible approach or you can never pick anybody up for anything.

Should I allow a member of staff to participate in a public parade with their trousers covered in dog hair or their shirt tails hanging out merely because my shoes aren’t as shiny as they might be? Of course not.

Likewise, pointing out that a badge/hat is squint is a statement of fact which is not altered by the state of somebody else’s jumper: trying to bawl someone out for the same issue while looking like a sack of spuds is quite another thing though.

If someone wishes to pick people up for tiny or trivial issues I’d expect their own kit to be of a similar or higher standard to that which they are judging others but still there is wiggle room: preparing a squad for inspection in a competition means that you get very, very picky and because advice is given as a helpful thing and not some sort of rebuke there is less of a curse, even if the trainer were actually in civvies at the time.
In that scenario, the ones who will undergo the inspection should be the ones at the highest possible standard and so long as the trainers’ uniform is “acceptable” then I see no reason for anybody to feel put out.

It is very easy for people to jump to a “black or white” extreme here as it is for other topics and rather than digging their heels in and adopting an arrogant attitude they should consider whether the “advice” they are being given is accurate, relevant and justified. By all means whinge and moan about the state of the person giving it but make sure you act upon it nevertheless.

With regards to the letter from Cmdt AC, there is a lot of recognition given to the fact that uniform maintenance is not as readily available for CFAVs and that they tend towards the lower lines on the scale of issue but that it is still possible for them to wear uniform in a way that is acceptable. At the extremes there are individuals whose uniform clearly does not fit or which is very obviously incorrect and the ACO cannot allow those issues to sully the good names of the RAF and the ATC by permitting them to parade. It is those situations that the letter is designed to address.

This is a sensitive issue and one that has been recognised as so by the CAC. The letter states that CACWO\Rgn\WWO’s are empowered by her to maintain dress standards for staff. Nowhere does it state that this can be passed on to SNCO’s.

Maybe the SNCO’s would be better employed maintaining the cadets standard of dress and leave experienced - and time served - WWO’s to address issues with officers.

This is a sensitive issue and one that has been recognised as so by the CAC. The letter states that CACWO\Rgn\WWO’s are empowered by her to maintain dress standards for staff. Nowhere does it state that this can be passed on to SNCO’s.

Maybe the SNCO’s would be better employed maintaining the cadets standard of dress and leave experienced - and time served - WWO’s to address issues with officers.[/quote]

If every sqn had a WO(ATC) then that would be best practice. However. that isn’t the case. Therefore, I’d suggest that all SNCO(ATC)s should be responsible for their unit’s dress standards. If he feels that their efforts aren’t making a difference then call in the WWO.

I rarely see my WWO and when I do it’s never on Sqn where it’s easier to let standards slip. This means SNCO(ATC)s should be used as the uniform Stazi :slight_smile:

That would require another letter from CAC empowering SNCO’s.

It’s also about experience and judgement. Does a newly-appointed SNCO of 20 years of age who hasn’t yet completed SSIC, have the same experience as a 12 year, minimum 32 yr old WWO? No. Will long-serving officers take any notice of the former. Probably not.

As I’ve said, the CAC has identified this as a sensitive issue and probably one that some young SNCO’s don’t have the maturity or experience to deal with.

I have the same issues as the fixer.

The WWO is NEVER seen out and about. He leaves his selected Sector NCOs to their own devices and they run wing parades too…how can he be then the SOLE person responsible for dress standards when he doesnt see them?

[quote=“woatch” post=4116]I have the same issues as the fixer.

The WWO is NEVER seen out and about. He leaves his selected Sector NCOs to their own devices and they run wing parades too…how can he be then the SOLE person responsible for dress standards when he doesnt see them?[/quote]
Then its up to your OC Wing to get his WWO out there and in amongst them.

[quote=“Gunner” post=4115]That would require another letter from CAC empowering SNCO’s.

It’s also about experience and judgement. Does a newly-appointed SNCO of 20 years of age who hasn’t yet completed SSIC, have the same experience as a 12 year, minimum 32 yr old WWO? No. Will long-serving officers take any notice of the former. Probably not.

As I’ve said, the CAC has identified this as a sensitive issue and probably one that some young SNCO’s don’t have the maturity or experience to deal with.[/quote]

I disagree. The SNCO is empowered to do nothing, correct. Therefore, he calls on the WWO, that is empowered (and can’t be everywhere)to act.

A 20yo SGT(ATC) won’t have experience. But let’s be honest here, anybody in the corps can tell is somebody looks like a sack of shock. Does it need experience to read and enforce dress regs? No.

If they do take notice of the former, problem fixed. If they don’t incomes WWO, and the problem (Should) be fixed.

I would expect any SNCO or officer to be able to take on the responsibility for highlighting and for attempting to address uniform issues in cadets and in other staff. How it is actually done is key and the letter from the commandant is irrelevant to that role.

The Wing, region and Corps WOs hold a higher power through that letter in that they can recommend* to the OC Wing that the individual in question is not to take part in public duties. It is meant to be used as a last resort to prevent arrogant individuals from ignoring the best-intentioned advice of others and subsequently bringing the RAF/ACO into disrepute.

One would hope that people would recognise the problems before putting a WO in the position where they need to use this power.

*by which it means “instruct unless there is a compelling reason otherwise”

Then I would suggest if the SNCO cadre is clamouring to be in on the act, petition your WWO (when you can find him) to petition your RWO to petition the CACWO to get an amendment out.

I could see it getting very messy, very quickly.

[quote=“Gunner” post=4122]Then I would suggest if the SNCO cadre is clamouring to be in on the act, petition your WWO (when you can find him) to petition your RWO to petition the CACWO to get an amendment out.

I could see it getting very messy, very quickly.[/quote]

I don’t see anybody clamouring to be in on the act. there should only be one person in the wing with the “powers” to act. All I’m saying is that the SNCO(ATC)s should at the very least “be the WWO’s eyes”

And how does a Wing / Region / Corps WO find out about issues that are going on at a BASIC squadron level - SQN SNCO’s therefore it is our responsibility.

we have 27 squadrons in our wing - there is no way our WWO - even if he was proactive could KNOW what was going on at every unit - so he has Sector NCOs that are tasked with visiting squadrons and maintaining standards. If what we say isnt listened to then we let him know - if it is still isnt listened to he passes it to the RWO and then up to CACWO - it is called a chain of command and they only work when everyone who is part of the chain knows their own role.

A SQN SNCO is responsible - whether they are 20 year old ATC Sgt or a 60 year old ATC WO for the dress standards of that unit - that encompasses cadets, as well as ALL uniformed staff. If they themselves are breaching the standards that is where a Sector NCO or a WWO comes into play - but how will they know unless they are out there doing the job???