Can you come to my wing and be WWO please??
It’s not that the strap isn’t meant to keep the hat on - that’s exactly what it’s designed for… but QCS wear their chinstraps down almost (if not) as standard on parade. Therefore they have a second strap attached to cover the front of the hat as ‘normal’ for aesthetic reasons.
Non-QCS personnel use the standard chin strip to hold the hat on in windy conditions without adding another one.
I have seen other non-regiment with two chinstraps as well.
The first time I noticed was a chap at Linton. He walked out of the Sgt’s mess in front of me and as a gust of wind threatened to blow his hat off he quickly whipped down the second strap at the back of his head as an emergency solution… Instant hat fixation!
It seemed like a logical idea! A quick fix that does not require removing the hat and fiddling with the front chin strap to adpot the ‘parade look’ of strap down around the chin. It’s only to keep his hat from blowing away for a limited time…
Since then I’ve noticed a number of other RAF guys with two straps.
It seems to have been picked up by quite a number of SNCOs (ATC). I’m sure that some do it because they think it makes them look special like the QCS.
Some do it because it’s a quick, helpful way of keeping your hat on in those ‘waaaay, the wind nearly took it then!’ situations.
And probably some do it because it appears to have the ammusing result of disproportionatly upsetting some other staff.
There’s nothing in the regs about it…but there’s also nothing in the regs about pressing creases in GPJ sleeves; or pressing creases through rank slides, or wearing ammo boots (which RAF DIs get issued), &c - all of which are practices that occur regularly in the RAF and that are, if not happily condoned, tolerated at least.
Personally, my feelings are that if the RAF don’t worry about it, why do we get so bent out of shape?
Strictly speaking, ammo boots are banned as AP1358C only allows the wearing of shoes in No 1 and No 2 dress by all ranks.
I tend to agree with you otherwise, there really are bigger things to worry about! Now, let’s throw stable belt loops into the mix and watch the frothing!
Because we are trying to set an example to young people.
Because the parent service think more of us for making up dress regulations for being speshul?
A couple of reasons to be bothered about it!
Actually I seem to recall (I believe in CROs) an Order that the GPJ sleeves are to be ironed flat, without creases as the crease ruins the line of jacket when “in repose”. Also I recall it including how far up the zip should be done…
Just sayin :whistle:
“at least 10cm from the top of the zip” 
[quote=“MattB” post=4232]Strictly speaking, ammo boots are banned as AP1358C only allows the wearing of shoes in No 1 and No 2 dress by all ranks.
[/quote]
This is what I mean though… Ammo boots are equally ‘banned’ in RAF dress regs as well, for the same reason - yet the RAF issue them to DIs with the expectation that they’ll wear them. Even though it’s contrary to the current published regulations.
[quote=“Perry Mason” post=4239]
Actually I seem to recall (I believe in CROs) an Order that the GPJ sleeves are to be ironed flat, without creases as the crease ruins the line of jacket when “in repose”. Also I recall it including how far up the zip should be done…[/quote]
I think you’re confusing two different orders there.
No 1 jackets are not to have creases pressed in so as not to spoil the “arm in repose” cut…there are no similar regs around GPJs. CROs only mentioned the zip and that the jersey should not be visible below the GPJ waist band.
You’ve evidently missed the entire point of my post… the parent service are clearly not worried by minor deviations such as presseing creases into a GPJ to make it look ‘smarter’ (depending on your taste), or adding a second chin strap to keep your hat from blowing away.
Provided the individual isn’t taking the proverbial by, I don’t know, wearing a sash they’re not entitled to, or wearing medals on their jersey, or wearing yellow socks, or similar… and so long as they look smart, the RAF don’t fuss. If someone looks like a wet weekend then they rightly get pulled up for it!
It’s only the ATC who get a sad-on over minor things that the parent service are perfectly happy with.
In my (albeit limited) experience, regular RAF SNCOs quite often tend view ‘ATC-type’ rants over such minor things with an attitude of “What’s all that fuss about!?..weird cadet instructors…”.
It’s ironic that sometimes the very people who dislike such things because they worry about appearing ‘professional’ in the eyes of the parent service are the very people who the regulars view with consternation.
I am talking about a Parade setting not walking around RAF In the middle of nowhere- and the context of the ACO WO cadre policing itself before setting their sights on other things. These dress infractions are carried out by the people entrusted with imposing the rules. Dress rules are plain and easy to understand.
I would love you to support the statement that no one in the parent service cares if the ACO adults wear what they like chinstrap wise, pace stick and everything else wise. or if they look like bag of rubbish tied in the middle in ill fitting Uniforms.
Clearly someone does as the CAS is taking a very close interest in our dress and has demanded action from HQAC.
BTW the 2 chinstrap around the band with the rear one used to keep your hat on is a US Army thing and does not come from any UK forces.
[quote=“asqncdr” post=4252]
I would love you to support the statement that no one in the parent service cares if the ACO adults wear what they like chinstrap wise, pace stick and everything else wise. or if they look like bag of rubbish tied in the middle in ill fitting Uniforms.[/quote]
You may well love me to support that statement - regrettably, it’s not the statement that I have made.
If you actually try reading the words you will see that I have not suggested that the RAF don’t care if we look like a sack of rubbish…you will in fact find that I said “if someone looks like a wet weekend they rightly get pulled up for it!”.
I will however support my statement thus:
The RAF are obviously not so bothered with such minor deviations in their personnel because if they were, then they wouldn’t issue ammo boots to DIs; they wouldn’t overlook (and in fact encourage amongst certain trades) creases in GPJs and rank slides; they would view the addition of a chin strap to a hat as a punishable offence…
…and they wouldn’t look at the ATC like bunch of weirdos when our staff make such an inordinate fuss over something minor.
The mere fact that they are happy to let these additions exist is proof enough.
Now then, ATC staff should absolutely look smart and appropriate!
But there is a world of difference between the smartest SNCO on parade - who happens to have a second chin strap, and the lump in ill-fitting No 1s with dog hair on his un-ironed trousers and scrambled egg in his mustache.
I just find it interesting that the ATC often get bent out of shape over things that they feel adversly represent the RAF uniform, when in fact the RAF don’t worry about those particular things.
Upon what do you base your assumptions? Do you have statistics to underpin your statement?
I doubt either.
So according to you, there are more VR(T) appointed with no previous experience than SNCO’s? Young 20 yr old SNCO’s don’t lack experience, do they not?. Sorry, I can’t believe you and THAT is based on observations with my own eyes over the last 10 or so years.
Scenario 1: Sector FS or WWO, both as smart as carrots, comes up to me (15yrs RAF Regt and 10 years VR(T) and advises me that my cap badge is a little askew. ‘No problem Flight\Mr Bloggs. Thank you for letting me know’ (removes cap and corrects it).
Scenario 2: 20 yr old newly-appointed SNCO approaches with a two-tone No.1 dress, ammo boots, QCS cap and pace-stick, all worn because ‘it looks smart’. ‘Sir, you aren’t exactly presenting the best example to the cadets because your cap badge is wonky. Sir, you’d best correct it now or I’ll have to tell the WWO’.
Me: takes his inexperience into account and desperately feels for him. He was obviously never loved as a child. Makes allowances, turns 20 yr old SNCO into a football and carries out a goal-mouth clearance that Peter Shilton would have been proud of.
Turns and carries on talking to colleagues. WWO now concerned over state of right toecap and brings ‘deflated football boy’ back. Use two-tone uniform to bull toecap. WWO all smiles.
I was going to reply to this earlier but forgot, Gunner’s post has reminded me.
To be perfectly honest, I have to say that your supposition is totally out of sync with my experiences in the real world.
Firstly. I know just as many cadet SNCOs going on to apply for a commission as I do going for Sgt. So to say that many Plt Off are ex CI and have never been in uniform is just not true.
Secondly, cadet service, no matter how many years it was for is not really comparable to service as Staff. Which is why a great many ex cadet SNCOs move into a staff position thinking that they already know pretty much everything they need to know, and then discover that there’s a hell of a lot more too it than they realised.
Some ‘rules’ to keep in mind…
-
A brand new ‘Cdt to Sgt (ATC)’ has no more experience than a brand new ‘Cdt to Plt Off’.
-
A brand new ‘Cdt to Sgt (ATC)’ has (in many cases) A LOT LESS experience than a CI of “many years”, no matter that CI is a non-uniform position.
Don’t be fooled into thinking that time spent as a cadet ‘trumps’ time spent as a CI.
I find that hard to believe.
An Officer will have as many years experience as they have been staff. A Fg Off will have at least 2 years experience (more if they were a CI first) which is at least 2 years more than the brand new Sgt (ATC).
Not to mention that experience which comes not from being a cadet, nor being a CI, nor from anything to do with the ATC… that which comes from life.
That “Officer who was a CI” you talk about has many years (your words) more life experience than our young, green Sgt.
Believe me, I’ve seen many young Sgts (ATC) who lack a world of experience!!
The attitude/lack of maturity/lack of experience problems that have been highlighed in this thread are in many cases a result of those new SNCOs who think that because they were a cadet for 7 years and got to Cdt FS or CWO they know it all.
Do you think axl might just be a young, newly-appointed SNCO?
Hey axl - how long have you been in the ATC?
No, don’t look at your watch…
[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=4266]The RAF are obviously not so bothered with such minor deviations in their personnel because if they were, then they wouldn’t issue ammo boots to DIs; they wouldn’t overlook (and in fact encourage amongst certain trades) creases in GPJs and rank slides; they would view the addition of a chin strap to a hat as a punishable offence…
…and they wouldn’t look at the ATC like bunch of weirdos when our staff make such an inordinate fuss over something minor.
The mere fact that they are happy to let these additions exist is proof enough.
I just find it interesting that the ATC often get bent out of shape over things that they feel adversly represent the RAF uniform, when in fact the RAF don’t worry about those particular things.[/quote]
But this happens all the time at work, the people doing the job know what is and what isn’t acceptable and just get on, whereas the people who don’t do or know the job, get all upset over really minor things, which just gets a huge eye roll, when they get stressy about it.
I can imagine some regulars looking at this and thinking what are they on about.
Axl, I don’t wnat to repeat the words of Gunner or WDI, but to draw on one of WDI’s comments.
I did about as long as you could in terms of cadet service, but on my 22nd birthday I entered the realms of adult staff as a CI and began another learning curve. I hadn’t forgotten what I had picked up, over nearly 9 years, but I was now in a world (at the time) inhabited by men who had all done time in and forgotten more than I could ever know and paid them due respect.
If as suspected you are a young adult Sgt who did their cadet time, you are unfortunately exhibiting all the reasons why cadets should not enter adult uniformed service straight from cadet. I get the impression that you are like some young uniformed staff who have been revered by your sqn staff and still haven’t lost the cadet in them and try and join in the banter of the big boys, but soon get out of their depth. These are manna from heaven as far as I’m concerned and good fun to toy with. If you don’t fit this description, I have no clue as to what has happened.
Not one of my cadets has ever been treated by me as more than a cadet of whatever rank, in terms of there is the line and it will not be crossed. They may sit in the bar and join in a conversation/banter, but they will not be my friend. It’s called professional distance, it irks me that some staff treat senior cadets like mates.
Oi!
[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=4318]But this happens all the time at work, the people doing the job know what is and what isn’t acceptable and just get on, whereas the people who don’t do or know the job, get all upset over really minor things, which just gets a huge eye roll, when they get stressy about it.
I can imagine some regulars looking at this and thinking what are they on about.[/quote]
Good lord. I agree with GHE2.
Young ACO instructors should be taught what is and isn’t acceptible by their seniors. Is it acceptible (read appropriate - the book alows it in either case) for an SNCO to wear an SD hat? It is in certain curcumstances, yes. For drill? Definatly. For a visit to the hangers to crawl around an engine? Probably not. Walking to dinner? Only of you’re gonna need it on after dinner, or have it on already, surely? If you’ve left your beret in the car? Of course.
I wish that the older and wiser instructors in the organisation would spend their time educating the younger ones about the customs and accepted practice of the parent service, rather than banging on at them with AP/ACP/CRO references and such-like!
What’s wrong with:
“Look mate, I know you’re a newly qualified DI and are therefore entitled to carry that stick. An you should quite rightly wear an SD hat when teaching drill, inspecting etc. In fact, a lot of us put a second chinstrap on because it’ll help keep your hat on and make it less of a faff if it gets proper windy. White belts look good too, although I can’t be arsed to polish mine unless i have to, so I don’t wear it. But Today, we’re in a meeting, so it isn’t really appropriate for you to have all that clobber here. Most of us just wear berets and jumpers for daily work. I’ll see if I can sort a better fitting hat from stores tomorrow too - yours is a bit droopy.”
Perhaps with an officer:
“Look Sir, t’s generally accepted that as a senior officer you don’t need to have gleaming shoes like your Discip man, and that when you return salutes you can do it a little more “lazily” than him too, but when you’re on a parade like this I’d expect you oxferds to be a bit shinier and your drill to be a little snappier. Would you like to spend a few minutes going over your salutes when you have a minute?”
Or is that all too sensible?
On a separate note, I’ve lost track of the number of times that a young SNCO will wander nervously up to a table in a mess and ask very loudly and out of nowhere: “EXCUSE ME - MAY I jOIN YOU?” Everyone looks as though to say “Of course you nutter, it’s the only table with places laid!”. The older and wiser should be trying to teach the younger and (what’s the opposite of wise?) that it’s fine to just say “Morning” like a normal person.
I’ll not air my views on overweight scruffy CFAVs.
You assume wrong. I’m definitely not just out from cadet service.
My opinion was based on my observations also and they are no less experienced than you. I like in your hypothetical situation with your cap badge the WOs were respectful and the SNCOs were arrogant and rude. Seems you have it in for SNCOs. My point was if a Sgt uses the same wording as you presented as polite then would you still insist on using them as a football? I’d hope not. Either way in that situation your badge is askew, don’t be so full of yourself as to take it personally.
Oh. And just FYI. Your attitude kinda stinks for being an officer. Especially if you’re the type who would chew out an Sgt for politely pointing out a simple indiscretion.
I think there is an element with anyone that its how things are said. I’ve seen as many Pilot Officers tell WOs things in an “inappropriate” manner as I have SNCOs towards VRT staff.
I do feel that some members if the ACO treat SNCOs as if they are going to be useless or rude without giving them the chance. If it weren’t for the laser review all SNCOs would be WOs straight away. I know I get treated differently by some staff as a WO then FS and Sgt do.
Ultimately if uniform is GLARINGLY wrong and the person wearing it is going on to a public parade is that what any of us want to see in the public eye? If the indiscretion is handled correctly and politely, does it matter what staff member is telling them? I would have thought common sense would provide a NO answer to both these questions.
Not that i particularly agree with the words axl has used, i think i understand what he is trying to get across, and in his defence offer the following
i completely agree - the diffidence between Staff and Cadet activities are miles apart despite being part of the same organisation.
however there are aspects of the Staff role, SNCO more so, where an ex-Cadet can use their previous skills, namely in the “bread and butter” skills of an SNCO, Drill, discipline and uniform (including regs etc).
[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=4307]
Some ‘rules’ to keep in mind…
- A brand new ‘Cdt to Sgt (ATC)’ has no more experience than a brand new ‘Cdt to Plt Off’.[/quote]
Experience of the staff role- agreed
[u]relevant [/u] skills to the role of SNCO - i agree less so,
simply because as a Cdt NCO they would have “lived and breathed” the uniform, drill and corresponding regs more so than a 6 who has served the same time or more.
[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=4307]
2. A brand new ‘Cdt to Sgt (ATC)’ has (in many cases) A LOT LESS experience than a CI of “many years”, no matter that CI is a non-uniform position. [/quote]
again i agree, however on aspects of personal interest, experience and ability i would disagree.
when it comes to drill it goes without saying a CI will have minimal if any experience of drill against a Ex-Cadet.
in terms of skills as a (generic) “Staff” member there is no competition. the attitude of the CI would show their experience in a staff role, while the ex-Cdt would simply indicate their ability to be a Cdt NCO rather than a well-rounded, skilled and experience Staff member
I find that hard to believe. [/quote]
i think what axl is getting at is there are more skills which can be taken from CWO into Sgt(ATC) that are instantly transferable and relevant to both roles than there are between CWO and VRT as from a rose tinted point of view, the two NCO roles (CWO and Sgt(ATC) are very similar in terms of Cadet interaction (particularly on a Parade Square) despite the varied and wide differences of responsibility between CWO and Sgt(ATC).
What a Cadet sees* of a Sgt(ATC) is very similar to that of a CWO, and as such are compariable. Some could go as far as saying that CWO is a good basis of “training” for Sgt(ATC) while there is no obvious “pre-Officer” role to pick up the skills and experience other than already being a staff member (less skills transferable between CWO and Plt Off)
*thus ignoring the background work in the office
disclaimer - please note i am not disagreeing with wdimagineer2b or Gunner, and although not completely disagreeing with axl i can see where he is coming from and chosen to offer some clarity (i may have misintepreted axl comments comepletely and if so i apologise, the views poste aboev are simply the views of Steve679 and not axl, wdimagineer2b or Gunner