The recent edict from HQACO put the responsibility for Dress standards for staff in the ACO firmly in the hands of the Warrant Officer fraternity.
Yesterday at an large event I saw a number of Warrant Officers who like to wear two chinstraps- why I do not know. I also saw a preponderance of pace sticks on a parade.
There were a number of odd uniform ensembles but sad to say I could not see anything wrong with any officer present, apart from some odd Gliding badge which was quickly removed, some Sgts had very poorly fitting No 1’s and should have worn No 2 instead as at least it would fit!
The Regional Warrant officer was there, but I heard not a peep! He had a stick- fair one but why all the others? It is not a RAF thing so where does it come from?
Do you think that the SNCO fraternity should sort itself out before trying to pick up Officers.
Do you think that the ACO should issue No 1 to SNCO’s? ( cost not substantial)
Do you think we should all wear No 2, think of the money the RAF would save( marginal)
This is not to have a pop- I am just bloody annoyed that WO’s walk past things and do not have the moral courage to deal with it, and now they’re expected to "talk"
to Officers about dress- This and the lack of Free issue to SNCO’s render them always at risk of looking like a bag of Gatuex
At my Wing parade on ATC Sunday there was a DI carrying his pace stick (although he’s not a WO.)
That aside, yes I think number 1s should be issued to SNCOs. A mate of mine recently went for his initial kitting and asked the stores clerk if they had any used number 1s in his size and whilst they did he wasn’t allowed them even though he offered to pay for it and it was being binned. The SNCOs need number 1s no more frequently than officers so why we aren’t scaled for them I don’t know, but being denied them at our parent station even though they’re going in the bin is a bit crap considering rip off direct have very little in the way of sizes forcing us to essentially guess buy from eBay. Maybe this would stop SNCOs turning up in ill fitting tunics!
for the same reason SNCOs are not scaled for GPJs i suspect…if they are scaled then there is the expectation/requirement to replacement scaled kit after “x years”
(what X years is i’m not sure, but i have heard that after lets say 5 years kit can be returned and asked for new as what you have is “worn”)
[quote=“asqncdr” post=4036]So carrying sticks is an widespread fail then?[/quote]Sticks can be carried by qualified DIs whilst undertaking drill instructional duties.
There used to be a thing written saying that pace sticks were not to be carried on parades but I can’t find that so I don’t know if it was in a document which is now obsolete.
Whilst I may concede that a parade marshall marching alongside a column of troops with the duty of helping ensure that the flights are in step and marching smartly, I do not see how he needs a stick to do it (they’d not be checking pace length with it I’m sure). I see no justification for the WO marching in the diamond to carry a stick as they are not undertaking Drill instructional duties.
as incubus says, permitted under instructional duties…
is there a clause which states maybe carried on a (static) Parade (such as an inspection) as a “badge of office” in the same way a “swagger stick”/cane might? but only by the Senior WO or am i getting myself confused with something else?
[quote=“steve679” post=4039]is there a clause which states maybe carried on a (static) Parade (such as an inspection) as a “badge of office” in the same way a “swagger stick”/cane might? but only by the Senior WO or am i getting myself confused with something else?[/quote]I have never seen anything which would limit it to a static parade and nothing else in your comment sounds particularly familiar. Could it be army habits?
There are some who want the pace stick to be used as a “badge of office” for WWOs but that is not in place yet. Those same people have already arranged for RWOs to carry canes.
for the same reason SNCOs are not scaled for GPJs i suspect…if they are scaled then there is the expectation/requirement to replacement scaled kit after “x years”
(what X years is i’m not sure, but i have heard that after lets say 5 years kit can be returned and asked for new as what you have is “worn”)[/quote]
Depends on the item. No2 trousers are ‘lifed’ for five years, for example. Although, as far as I’m aware, it just means that you shouldn’t be able to exchange them before that date because they shouldn’t have worn out (excepting unusual wear and tear, ie: falling down a staircase, getting set on fire etc)…does it work that way in reality? :lol:
Don’t see why SNCOs ‘need’ No1s, though. Want, yes, but need? I thought the fact that they aren’t scaled for them means that dress regs, etc are actually built around them not being ordered to wear them.
[quote=“incubus” post=4040]I have never seen anything which would limit it to a static parade and nothing else in your comment sounds particularly familiar. Could it be army habits?
[/quote]
i must be confused with something then, i was aware of not to be carried when marching (ie through a town etc) but thought they could be on a Parade Square in a “march on/March off parade”
[quote=“tango_lima” post=4041]
Don’t see why SNCOs ‘need’ No1s, though. Want, yes, but need? I thought the fact that they aren’t scaled for them means that dress regs, etc are actually built around them not being ordered to wear them.[/quote]
the argument is there why do Officers need them? it is much like the all should be VR(T) or ATC there is a difference in “status” which creates other knock discrepancies (in this case entitlement)
In general terms - NCOs should be the bastion of virtue when it comes to uniform, but we all know that no matter what flavour of pins you wear on your rank there are people on both sides who need… guidance.
It is my view that ALL of us, whether Officer or NCO have a responsibility to deal with dress stanards.
I am not entirely sure the dictat coming from HQAC is the best way to deal with the issues which have been commented about before on these boards. And we all know there will be staff (of both varieties) who will deal with uniform situations badly - cue the WO who likes to try and lord it over officers, and the officer who ignores all advice.
It certainly is right to highlight the issue, and it is right that those who wear unifrorm should do so in a manner which represents the parent service well, whether short, tall, fat, thin, officer, NCO.
I’m not sure that anybody CFAV genuinely “needs” No1 dress and the regulations can certainly be built around that stance were it to be adopted.
Our officers, being RAF, have been lumped in with the regulars insofar that they are issued No1 dress and should SNCO/WO CFAV eventually be hauled into the VR(T) I would expect (as in I believe it ought to be the case) that SNCO/WO were also scaled for No1 dress. I wonder if that would go the other way and that if VR(T) was swapped to a Cadet Commission the scale of issue would be dropped…
Anyway, back to the Now: SNCOs are permitted No1 dress but the opportunities for them to wear them have been lessened. I am sure they want to look every bit as smart* as the officers on a parade and wish to display their own medals.
*There are these people called tailors who can take shoddy, ill-fitting uniforms and adjust them so they fit better.
Has anybody else come across the practise of SNCOs wearing a No1 jacket over their No2s for parades? I’m guessing it must happen fairly frequently…I’ve definitely seen it once and I have my suspicions about other occassions…
As a WO(ATC) who has number ones (sourced from personal provider as opposed to the RAF) and also as a DI I must say i agree with most of the comments above.
The NCO CADRE - not just WO’s have been tasked by Commandanct Air Cadets to improve and enforce dress regulations - now my understanding of that is ANYONE who is inappropriately dressed, not just Officers would be spoken to - in an appropriate manner - we HAVE to start somewhere!!
As far as carrying pace sticks, it is an annoyance of mine as I tow the party line - I dont carry it unless on instructional duties, however, it annoys me that others flaunt this rule. In our defence we have completed a course to earn the right to carry a pace stick so i do see why some people are a bit more inlcined to carry it - however, the rules say we CANT - simples!
I remember being on Wing Parade and the WWO was bemoaning the fact that very few Officers had bulled their shoes, and when he was asked to point out where it said shoes must be bulled, he couldn’t, because it doesn’t. Even as a WO I never bulled my shoes, but through several years of brush polishing they looked a darn sight better than many bulled shoes.
If we are going to have SNCOs operating as described then they have to play by the book and not bring personal foibles into play. Do this and gain respect, come over all holy than thou and expect a rebuke, regardless of whatever edict/diktat comes out of the Ivory Towers.
I love, and I mean love, pulling up shoddily attired vrt’s who think they can cut about a station like a bag of poo. In fact any holder of a commission is a pleasing target. Having a good run of scalping grow bags on mobile phones of late.
No they haven’t. I’ve seen the letter too and the delegated authority ends at WWO’s. It says nothing about the authority being further delegated to SNCO’s.
I suggest that the SNCO cadre gets their own house in order FIRST before trying to set about others. Get rid of the double chin-straps, remove the ammo boots, leave the pace sticks at home and look AND ACT the part. Then - just then - might everyone take you seriously.
For the record, any trainee badass SNCO who wants to take me to task over my standards of dress had bloody well better conform to every dress reg in the book before he starts on me.
