ATC Sqn suspended over civcom/staff rift

[SGY863]

Operation Nimrod i may be underestimating what i do and be asking people for things i wont get but shoot me down all you like, knock me back to the bottom all you want. The spirit, determination and dedication i have for my squadron will never get effected.

Why would you get involved in this and why would you just come one here to try and destroy all hope we have, clearly lots of people feel strongly about this and will stand by the squadron even if it closed, and i am one of these people. no matter what people “think” they can say and do it will never ever destroy my hope.

Think twice about “trying” to destroy hope and hurt people, people as young as 13 are involved in this organisation and do you not understand the damage it has to people at a age where they need stability?? People like me sitting very important exams and this has a massive impact to grades and stress. Just get off this page and go somewhere that people may actually like you, cause here you are not wanted or liked.

Rant over

[SGY863]

Operation Nimrod i may be underestimating what i do and be asking people for things i wont get but shoot me down all you like, knock me back to the bottom all you want. The spirit, determination and dedication i have for my squadron will never get effected.

Why would you get involved in this and why would you just come one here to try and destroy all hope we have, clearly lots of people feel strongly about this and will stand by the squadron even if it closed, and i am one of these people. no matter what people “think” they can say and do it will never ever destroy my hope.

Think twice about “trying” to destroy hope and hurt people, people as young as 13 are involved in this organisation and do you not understand the damage it has to people at a age where they need stability?? People like me sitting very important exams and this has a massive impact to grades and stress. Just get off this page and go somewhere that people may actually like you, cause here you are not wanted or liked.

[SGY863]

Operation Nimrod i may be underestimating what i do and be asking people for things i wont get but shoot me down all you like, knock me back to the bottom all you want. The spirit, determination and dedication i have for my squadron will never get effected.

Why would you get involved in this and why would you just come one here to try and destroy all hope we have, clearly lots of people feel strongly about this and will stand by the squadron even if it closed, and i am one of these people. no matter what people “think” they can say and do it will never ever destroy my hope.

Think twice about “trying” to destroy hope and hurt people, people as young as 13 are involved in this organisation and do you not understand the damage it has to people at a age where they need stability?? People like me sitting very important exams and this has a massive impact to grades and stress. Just get off this page and go somewhere that people may actually like you, cause here you are not wanted or liked.

can do this all day mate so keep going, just cause you dont like what i say maybe its a hint to leave

[Operation_Nimrod]

SGY863, that’s the third repeat post I’ve trimmed. Read your PMs before posting again please.

[barty617]

Good evening all,

Very long time no see.

I was once a member of this squadron, and spent 4 very enjoyable years there as a cadet. I left in November 2011, fearing that this would happen sooner.

This all kicked off in August of that year, whilst on an AT camp at Halton, Lancs. The CivCom chairman would usually accompany us on these camps, but there was no sign of him that year. There was also no sign of his deputy, a recently retired VRT Sqn Ldr who, in his defence, still had a lot of transferable skills.

Anyway, midway through this camp (where I’d decided I was now too old for the ATC anyway), we heard news that these two characters had received notice of their suspension and we were assembled by our OC to explain what had happened. It turned out that it was something along the lines of the CivCom had ruffled the feathers of the school which we paraded on, so had been reported up the chain of command.

Since that happened we would constantly be hearing of tit-for-tat moves by both sides (Our CivCom vs the ACO. Legal battles, resignations, inspections, on more than one occasion suspended members of our CivCom would be escorted away from the building by the Police. It was all one big mess. My father is still a CI at the squadron and my younger brother is a cadet nco, hence me being in the know.

If I said this hadn’t contributed to my decision to leave, I’d be lying. It was going to happen soon, but these incidents brought it forward. I am still to this day angry at those who caused these incidents to occur for making me come to that judgement sooner, it would have been nice to climb out of a Tutor knowing that that was the last time.

Hearing further stories about the escalating situation, it was me that submitted the FOI request for a bit of summer reading material to be perfectly honest. Why not take advantage of the laws that work in your favour? After all, most people involved are accountable to the general public. It was this FOI request that I’m led to believe led to the dismissal of Gp Cpt Brett Morrell (C&E region), as well as the national CivCom chairman and ultimately the disappearance of Air Cmdre Barbara Cooper.

The press article quoted in the original post is clearly biased towards one side, as they knew where to get the facebook quotes. If the unit has been suspended, it has for a reason and this reason is quoted by Comdt AC in a personal email to a family member of mine as safety concerns; a legitimate reason to suspend the unit.

It is disheartening to see that the opportunities of children have been taken away from them though. After all, that is what the ATC is all about isn’t it? When you’re in as a cadet, it’s easy to see it as a mini army and be power hungry. However, having matured since leaving, it is easy to see that the number 1 principle of the organisation is to give kids a chance they wouldn’t have if they didn’t participate. It’s a shame to see that there are still adults who haven’t left the power hungry attitude behind. On a regular basis as a cadet I would question the motives of staff members, the most common questionable ones were power hungry and pay (second job?)

Hope this gives you a little bit more of an idea.

I’ll follow this thread with interest

[Baldrick]

Sgy863, you clearly misunderstand exactly what is happening here. Op Nimrod was not attacking your efforts or passion. What he did not like, is your attitude and inflated sense of entitlement. And I agree with him.

While your intentions to make a difference are indeed commendable, you make no friends for your squadron with comments such as:

863 is the best sqn in the wing and Norfolk and Suffolk wing is nothing without us (who would win everything :cheer:),

to see the best sqn in the wing and most likely in the whole of the aco to go from a “solid gold squadron” down to this.

So, please tone it down.

[barty617]

Spot on. This would take up about 6 weeks of our summer programme, raise tens of thousands of pounds which went straight into this private account (Salmon Trust) that we would never see. It’s hard to believe we bought it for so long…

@"the marksman" post=7391

[quote=“Perry Mason” post=7381][quote=“the marksman” post=7360]Hello strangers, long time no see etc.

Who let you in? ;)[/quote]
Oh, I make an art form of sneaking past security these days

I have to say, the movement of £75,000 from Sqn funds into a privately controlled fund outwith the ATC should be making whacking great alarm bells clang all round.

My reading of the FOI stuff was that the civcom chair had basically used the Sqn as a vehicle to set up this local fair, initially as a unit fundraiser but then it seems to have become an end in its own right.

This “Salmon Fund” seems to have been the civcom chairman’s means of getting his own way and building a new sqn HQ, after being told by the CoC that SHQs are publicly funded. By setting up a fund outside of the ATC’s control he could continue to raise funds with the stated intention of having a new building built, even though he’d been told “no” previously.

A change of staff at the unit (possibly? there was something about a new OC there) meant the new staff stepped back, said “hang on, running this fair is not a core activity and it is currently crowding out actual cadet activities” …

… and that seems to have aroused the wrath of the civcom chairman, who quite liked the idea of being in charge of a compliant sqn staff who’d do as they were told, hence the staff resignations, presumably because they tried to stand up to him. At this point it seems to have been escalated to Wing and Region, and that’s where it gets messy with nonsense about human rights, law and so forth.

The civcom chairman seems squarely at fault for all of this, in my opinion. If I was one of the parents at that sqn I’d want to know what the hell he was doing with the £75k that (presumably) is now under his sole control, and what portion of Sqn funds he was diverting into his private legal battle against everyone in a uniform within 50 miles of him.[/quote]

[SGY863]

[quote=“Baldrick” post=7433]Sgy863, you clearly misunderstand exactly what is happening here. Op Nimrod was not attacking your efforts or passion. What he did not like, is your attitude and inflated sense of entitlement. And I agree with him.

While your intentions to make a difference are indeed commendable, you make no friends for your squadron with comments such as:

863 is the best sqn in the wing and Norfolk and Suffolk wing is nothing without us (who would win everything :cheer:),

to see the best sqn in the wing and most likely in the whole of the aco to go from a “solid gold squadron” down to this.

So, please tone it down.[/quote]

Thank you for reading my message clearly worked in grabbing your attention.

[Operation_Nimrod]

Reading these FOIs it’s clear to see that the ACO is going to overhaul the relationship with Civilian Committees and the rules they are supposedly bound by. I fear it won’t be a good move as it will hinder more than it will save in the long run. When put not perspective, this incident is the exception to the rule. We should remember there are far more committees doing good/average than there are making things difficult. Just a shame it’s taken this to rejig the rules. A few tweaks may have worked and prevented this from happening.

[SGY863]

Reading these FOIs it’s clear to see that the ACO is going to overhaul the relationship with Civilian Committees and the rules they are supposedly bound by. I fear it won’t be a good move as it will hinder more than it will save in the long run. When put not perspective, this incident is the exception to the rule. We should remember there are far more committees doing good/average than there are making things difficult. Just a shame it’s taken this to rejig the rules. A few tweaks may have worked and prevented this from happening.

Couldnt agree more

[397k]

It is sad when a Sqn Civ Comm and the uniformed staff cannot work together, I have seen it locally over the years but thankfully in 20 years and 2 squadrons I have never experienced it. I suppose I have been extremely fortunate.

I am glad that to a point the Civ comm do not fall easily into our uniformed chain of command as over the years their level of independence has been of great use when having to deal with “overbearing personnel at Wing level”.

[Chief_Tech]

Just a shame it’s taken this to rejig the rules. A few tweaks may have worked and prevented this from happening.

Is this not the nature of life and large government organisations in general. Nothing gets done or changed until a drastic incident occurs - be it shooting, Child protection, health and safety or anything else. Then when it does it often results in an over-reaction and snap decision making, sometime leaving even greater potential for problems, sometimes due to poor assumptions or information.

On the other hand you could have people try to adjust everything constantly which just can lead to confusion and stagnation. It’s a bit of a no-win scenario. The need to have a system in place for re-assessing the base assumptions to check they still hold true ever would be one of the essentials to my mind especially when legislation is changed.

[asqncdr]

[quote It was this FOI request that I’m led to believe led to the dismissal of Gp Cpt Brett Morrell (C&E region), as well as the national CivCom chairman and ultimately the disappearance of Air Cmdre Barbara Cooper./quote]

I am interested in how you attribute your FOI request to the “Dismissal” of Gp Capt Morrell, who left under the MODCS Voluntary early release scheme, which he had applied for some considerable time before and the implied effect in causing Comdandant ACO to leave, you must indeed be a powerful person!

The meat of all that FOI information casts rather a poor light on the conduct of the Civcom particularly the Chair, I am very surprised that they went to Summer camp at an RAF Station with you and find that in itself extremely odd. In itself I can’t see anything in there that would question the Judgement of the Regional Commandant, who I think has the patience of a saint!

[glass_half_empty_2]

Reading these FOIs it’s clear to see that the ACO is going to overhaul the relationship with Civilian Committees and the rules they are supposedly bound by. I fear it won’t be a good move as it will hinder more than it will save in the long run. When put not perspective, this incident is the exception to the rule. We should remember there are far more committees doing good/average than there are making things difficult. Just a shame it’s taken this to rejig the rules. A few tweaks may have worked and prevented this from happening.

If this suggested overhaul happened I for one would welcome it. Until I took command of my current unit some years ago, I had only experienced a positive relationship with the CWC and although when I took over the Chairman was completely useless, the others were OK but lacked any guidance from the Chairman. When the Chairman was voted off (at the first AGM in anyone’s memory) too which they took umbrage, a complex series of events over 4 years, outside unit but then brought into the CWC created my problematic situation.
It’s only when you as the CO experience a debilitating negative relationship and realise that you, and everyone else for that matter, are totally powerless to remove people from CWCs or influence anything, other than attempting to fill the CWC with your mates and or rig the AGM voting process.
If you had a member of staff causing problems, the process is fairly straightforward.
If CWCs didn’t sit outside our CoC as they do, this situation would have been resolved, with none of this fuss.
It is ironic that it is suggested the last CAC, who was hooked on compliance and rules/regs, was undone by a situation that the uniform side has no control over.

[incubus]

A review of the role of civilian committees in the ACO is long overdue in my opinion.

Back in the day (around 1941 mostly) the civilian committee would form from the community and work to get a new squadron in their locale and it seems like many of the powers and the responsibilities of this mindset have been left behind but I wonder just how many civcom chairmen are finding potential replacement OCs or approving commissioning requests for instance.

If they are to exist at all (I am not convinced that we could not operate effectively without them) it should be as a function to manage the non-public (and public, apparently) funds of a squadron.

[glass_half_empty_2]

If they are to exist at all (I am not convinced that we could not operate effectively without them) it should be as a function to manage the non-public (and public, apparently) funds of a squadron.

The only person you need is a treasurer. The OC and treasurer are signatories to the account(s), job done. As it is the CO is “the face” of the squadron, in terms of people contacting the sqn and has to get approval for any activity involving cadets.

You could have a “friends of the squadron” who assist at things.

[Jacques]

You could have a “friends of the squadron” who assist at things.

This sounds a lot more accessible, and I think that it more accurately reflects the role as well.

[MattB]

[quote=“incubus” post=7445]If they are to exist at all (I am not convinced that we could not operate effectively without them) it should be as a function to manage the non-public (and public, apparently) funds of a squadron.

The only person you need is a treasurer. The OC and treasurer are signatories to the account(s), job done. As it is the CO is “the face” of the squadron, in terms of people contacting the sqn and has to get approval for any activity involving cadets.

You could have a “friends of the squadron” who assist at things.[/quote]Indeed, and the only reason you actually need a treasurer is because of the rules.

How about just essentially creating a different staff post, sort of like a CI but without any sort of instructional duties - who are there mostly to provide material support to the unit.

[glass_half_empty_2]

How about just essentially creating a different staff post, sort of like a CI but without any sort of instructional duties - who are there mostly to provide material support to the unit.

I could see that working for about 5 minutes, and then on a night when staff numbers are low … I know I would. After all they’d be staff and there for me to deploy to achieve the task.
A model which has them as ‘helpers’ and only a treasurer as the only ‘established’ post so to speak, is what would work better. They could raise money, but they have no control/influence over the spending of it.
I’m not sure how the trustees side of things works wrt charities, as this is something that has or seems to have created some of the issues in this case.

[MattB]

To clarify, under my model they wouldn’t be expected to attend on a regular parade night!