ATC Sqn suspended over civcom/staff rift

I can’t think of many downsides of the ‘Friends of … Squadron’ approach, apart from the response from some committees who will see it as a reduction in status (and that may be a big problem).

However, creating a new staff position would be quite complex, and could imply that committee members were responsible to the squadron commander (is this what you’re proposing?)

I suppose the key difference between the ideas is whether members are seen as a separate group/team, with a chair that communicates with the squadron commander, or whether they are seen as a part of the squadron with a similar status to CIs.

I found quite interesting the part where the way they chose to deal with a problem CI, was to manage them out of the “business” by waiting until their extension was due and not re-newing them.

It sounded like a very constructed exit from the ACO to me.

Surely if they were posing a problem the issue should be dealt with sooner, through corrective action. Or are the sanctions/Admin action against a CI particularly limited?

[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=7449]
The only person you need is a treasurer. The OC and treasurer are signatories to the account(s), job done. As it is the CO is “the face” of the squadron, in terms of people contacting the sqn and has to get approval for any activity involving cadets.

You could have a “friends of the squadron” who assist at things.[/quote]

Personally, I am happy to have a separate entity that approves Squadron spending. I may be biased because I have an effective and helpful civ com (admittedly, I’d like them to take more of the reigns with regard to fundraising, but that’s by the by…). To have the separate pillar means that I know I am not becoming overly engrossed in one idea, and any real outlay of money is ratified by them.

This separation is key, because as Squadron staff it can at times become too easy to become narrow minded over something. The Civ Com, which generally comprises of parents, ratifying my spending decisions lets me know that the very same parents that are paying subscriptions into the account are happy that those subscriptions are being used to best effect.

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I think they should be!

As it stands, a CivCom can contain no experience, knowledge, or understanding of either the RAF or ATC, but are endowed with the power to control spending which should be for the benefit of the Squadron. They, without any experience of the ATC, have the power to affect normal operations.

Who knows more about what’s needed/required for the unit? The CivCom who meet once a month for a free brew and a mother’s meeting; or the staff who’ve passed appointment boards, initial courses, and who give up far more than the two evenings per week to actually learn about the organzation and contribute directly to the day-in/day-out operation of the unit?
Further more, who generally shows more committment to bettering the Squadron!?

Loose the idea of a CivCom (current rules aside) and the unit would still continue to operate as normal. Loose the staff (both uniformed and non-uniformed) and there would be no ATC.
It’s the staff who actually deliver the ‘cadet experience’ and make the ATC what it is, not the average CivCom.

In my mind, it’s imperative that the CivCom are brought under control of the ACO Chain of Command.

I recall reading that one of the OCs here (can’t remember who) sets out to the CivCom the spending plans for the year which are then agreed. If the committee fail to meet them, he or she takes them to task over it!
I think that’s an excellent way to control the committee!! Though it would seem from this whole incident that it would be very easy for any CivCom to dig their heels in, refuse to cooperate with the OC, proclaim their superior status, and actually be supported by the law!
That is a totally unworkable and unnacceptable situation!

Certainly there needs to be a safeguard in place to ensure that rogue OCs don’t go flaunting money…but the idea that this REQUIRES a separate civilian committee is flawed. It could very easily be coordinated in some other way.

I’m sure that the ACOs charity status brings many benefits, but if an unwanted side effect is that civilian committees are infact their own disconnected trainset then something HAS to be changed.

In the last 16 years in my current Squadron we’ve never had staff who’ve gone crazy with the funds.
We have however had a treasurer who engineered his way to running off with £1000s of squadron money; and then some years later, the CivCom I described earlier who blocked virtually all spending for no other reason than they wanted a nice, fat bank account. No matter how impressive the bank balance is it’s no bloody use if it’s not actually being spent to benefit the unit.

It’s clear to see which structure has caused more problems in my experience!

A very good post, but there’s one flaw. Put total control in one person and you engineer financial misapplication and fraud on a wide scale. No other organisation does it nor does business. Both have various measures, checks and controls in place to reduce the chances of it happening but neither allow one person to have overall financial authority. It’s a minefield and we don’t have the money or people to ensure 1500+ Sqn Cdrs aren’t squirrelling money away or paying for gold encrusted swagger sticks.

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ON I don’t think the implication or suggestion is that there isn’t any sort of check/balance. It concerns me that CWCs submit summary accounts each year to HQAC and have things checked over by Wing during the AI and no real questions are asked about spending. I wonder what happens to F60s as if there was higher spend on one particular area, that looked disproportionate, both CO and CWC exec could be asked the difficult question. I have got a financial delegation and there are some squadrons where the CO has a debit card, which have to be accounted for. I have receipts and petty cash vouchers that show every single penny, all in a spreadsheet.
The ACF Det Cdrs IIRC act as treasurer and have to produce accounts for inspection. I’ve been treasurer for two village groups over the years and producing basic summary sheets that tie up with bank statements, recipts and petty cash dockets is not rocket science.

WDI speaks an unalienable truth in that the average CWC come from the parental side of the Corps and have no idea about the actual running of a squadron, nor go through a process of appointment, yet pound for pound can create havoc and disruption than anyone. My second chairman recognised he knew diddly squat about the Corps and did all he could to ensure that I had what I needed to run the sqn, which was undone by people coming in purely IMO to cause mischief with alterior motives, which one was quite open about. Many others in my position would probably have walked as the pressure, on top of running the sqn was ridiculous.

My ideal scenario would be a CWC that raises the money but the OC is solely accountable for what it is spent on. The CWC would be responsible for ensuring it’s not spent illegally & the accounts. They’d still write the cheques and manage the bank accounts etc.

If the OC wastes money (Buying a Double-Decker bus instead of a minibus etc) he should then be held accountable by the CoC. As the OC makes the decisions on what a Sqn does, why shouldn’t he control the budget?

This is how my CWC works in practice (lucky me) but I’m all too aware that some Sqn & Wg CWC members are only there for a power trip. Usually the ones that sit on many local committees (RAFA, RBL, Rotary etc) and love the ego boost of an exec role. These people have caused real nightmares for enthusiastic Sqn Cdrs. With the current set up there isn’t much the ACO can do to slap down a rouge CWC. The only way to sort them out is for an OC to pack the CWC with their mates and vote off the trouble makers. The book needs to be rewritten to ensure the OC is boss and to make it easier to sack a CWC without rigging elections.

[quote=“the fixer” post=7466]My ideal scenario would be a CWC that raises the money but the OC is solely accountable for what it is spent on. The CWC would be responsible for ensuring it’s not spent illegally & the accounts. They’d still write the cheques and manage the bank accounts etc.

If the OC wastes money (Buying a Double-Decker bus instead of a minibus etc) he should then be held accountable by the CoC. As the OC makes the decisions on what a Sqn does, why shouldn’t he control the budget?[/quote]
Absolutely agree - a separate treasurer helps manage the accounts and acts as co-signatory on major spends but the OC gets the final word.

Retain a committee structure at wing with a dotted line to the sqn treasurer so that concerns can be raised and wayward OCs can be counselled.

What I am unsure about is how this would all affect charity status, if at all.

Correct. Our current county policy is that our accounts are set up to require at least two signatures for cheques and that our accounts are audited once a year by company, who then provide a report to county. By and large it is a good system. The time issues really arise is when a det commander leaves and doesn’t bother handing over the accounts to the next one properly - not because they are stealing money, just lazy!

It is up to each unit how to spend its funds.

I have often wondered why we still maintain the archaic concept of CWCs. As has been mentioned earlier, a group of ‘friends of’ or similar would serve to make sure the cadets’ interests were being maintained and funds were being raised; we probably have enough supervision through the Sector Officer /Wg HQ processes to ensure that the Sqn is being run properly. The power that CWCs have (and think they have) is disproportionate to the benefits they bring, after all, why should a group of people who know little about the running of a Sqn or the Corps in general be required to approve Sqn Cdr appointments?

Financial matters will always focus attention, but again, I think we go over the top. Talon has made a good point, if the ACF Det Cdrs act as Treasurers, why can’t we do likewise? Indeed, in the RAF, Jnr Offs and SNCOs are responsible for non-public accounts many of which have considerably more in them than the average ATC Sqn. They are responsible for accounting and spending, and will be subject to audits from the Stn Audit Board. I’m fairly sure we could do similar, after all, our CWCs have to get the accounts professionally audited annually, so there would be no change. Granted, non-public funds all ‘bank’ with the Stn SFAS so there is an extra level of governance, but the overall responsibility for financial management sits squarely with the Jnr Off and SNCO; and it can be a career stopper!

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Ladies and Gents,

Having had a “ you are permanently banned from this site” message from the last ACC site(and not sure what I had done to upset people), I am delighted to find that under the new format I seem to have served my sentence and apparently been rehabilitated!!

I find this thread fascinating from a process point of view( and excuse me if I am covering old ground or teaching people to suck eggs – this is not my intent). Process issues should be non- emotive so here goes.

Extant Air Cadet rules and regulation documentation defines the roles and responsibilities of Civilian Committees. In essence, in financial terms, funding to support Air Cadet activities comes in two major streams public and non-public. Unless I have missed a trick the Civ Com are responsible for supporting the non –public side. They do this by raising subscriptions from cadets and through a programme of fund raising events. So far so good.

In terms of accommodation, HQAC working with and in support of Defence Estates (or whatever the current title is), and through the RFCAs provides new build accommodation, supports a maintenance programme, pays rents for non- MOD sites and pays heating and lighting bills. New build accommodation is provided against a scale with priorities being set both internally within the Air Cadets and externally through negotiation with the other cadet forces, usually the Army, for joint use accommodation.

It would appear from the information in the public domain that in this case the Civ Com of 863 Thurston Squadron ATC decided that, in their view, the current accommodation, for whatever reason, was inadequate. I assume that they made a case through the WgExO (AdO as was) for consideration during the annual review process and would guess that they were not successful. It would seem that as a result they formed the The Salmon Trust ( A company limited by guarantee) – sometimes known as a charitable trading company (Charity number 1128851
Company number 6807092), in order to pursue their aim of providing, in their view, more appropriate accommodation.

Further, it would appear that the Charities Commission considered that the aims and objectives of the Salmon Trust met the criteria for registration. It would be interesting to know if anyone at the Charities Commission contacted HQAC in order to clarify the role of the Civ Com and the responsibilities for the provision of accommodation. However, from the registration point onwards the Trustees of the Salmon Trust had rights and responsibilities under Charities Law.

The documents concerning the salmon Trust can be found on the Charities Commission website:

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithoutPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=1128851&SubsidiaryNumber=0

I think that they make interesting reading (but then I am a sad man)

Purposes and Aims.
Our charity’s purpose as set out in the objects contained in the company’s memorandum of
association are to :
Help, encourage and support the work of the Air Training Corps (my underlining)and other organisations involved in the development of young people in Thurston Village and throughout West Suffolk. To work with young people to achieve their full physical, intellectual, social and
spiritual potential.

Objectives.
(a) The establishment of a community centre and to maintain or manage or cooperate with any appropriate authority in the maintenance and management of such a centre.
(b) The provision of recreational and leisure time activities provided in the interest of
social welfare, designed to improve their conditions of life.
© Providing support and activities which develop their skills, capacities and capabilities
to enable them to participate in society as mature and responsible individuals.

Summary of activities and achievements.
The trustees have identified a need within the Thurston 863 Air Training Corps for additional premises so that they are able to expand their recruitment and undertake more training for the development of the young cadets. It is apparent that for the squadron to thrive and extend the range of activities available that further space is required. The Trustees have continued raising funds and organising Architectural plans and Planning permission to build additional facilities to further the trusts objectives.

I have highlighted the element in bold for 3 reasons:

(1) The Salmon Trust are not building a new Sqn HQ but a community centre with all the complexities generated through sharing with other non-cadet organisations.

(2) I would guess that the Civ Com identified the “need” for larger premises, had it rejected by HQAC and then formed the Salmon Trust to pursue the same aim. The “need” was therefore not identified by the Trustees of an existing Charity - the charity was formed to pursue the accommodation “need” not deemed a high enough priority by the ACO.

(3) While the aims and objectives of the charity talks of working with other organisations none are mentioned by name

POTENTIAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST?

From publically available documentation it would appear that there may be a number of members of the 263 Sqn Civ Com who also serve on the Salmon Trust Committee. Indeed the report from 2009-2010 indicates that

“The trustees have been drawn from the Thurston 863 Air Training Corps parents Committee.”

That being the case, the further statement that the substantial part of the monies donated to the Salmon Trust have come from the Civ Com would have all my alarm bells ringing very loudly.

In essence we seem to have a 863 Civ Com set up to support the non-publically funded side of the ATC donating money raised to support non –public expenditure to a charity that has been set up to provide facilities that are funded for the ATC from the public purse - the decision to transfer money being made by some of the same people that will be receiving it. I am sure that the Charities Commission will have considered all these aspects in their deliberations – I, for one, would love to see that report.

Given the way in which key individuals in this saga have made great play about their legal rights and responsibilities I am sure that any minutes of meetings of the Civ Com will record that those members who were dual hated with the Salmon Trust declared an interest and took no part in any discussion or vote concerning the transfer of funds!!!

In Conclusion:
• I have no idea how well or badly this was handled by the COC. Unfortunately these events too often disintegrate into an: I said, they said , now we’re all upset debate.
• From publically available information the Salmon Trust do not appear to be meeting their stated aim to “Help, encourage and support the work of the Air Training Corps (unless presumably as defined by them).
• There may well have been undeclared conflicts of interest.
• There is certainly an opportunity to review current regs to redefine the relationships between the different elements of the RAF Air Cadets.
• Too many people have lost sight of the fact that the RAF Air Cadets exist to provide opportunities for young people – far too often it is those same young people who become the real casualties of adult egos.

[quote=“Operation Nimrod” post=7464]A very good post, but there’s one flaw. Put total control in one person and you engineer financial misapplication and fraud on a wide scale. No other organisation does it nor does business. Both have various measures, checks and controls in place to reduce the chances of it happening but neither allow one person to have overall financial authority. It’s a minefield and we don’t have the money or people to ensure 1500+ Sqn Cdrs aren’t squirrelling money away or paying for gold encrusted swagger sticks.[/quote]We have plenty of officers/WOs/SNCOs who could perform the check/balance role… if there aren’t enough on unit staff then the role could be performed by a suitable member of wing staff.

Thanks to “Celticmentor” for the links…makes very interesting reading.

The bit that caught my eye, from the 2010 report reads:

The [b]Salmon Trust

The Management Committee now have funds available of £102,062, most of which has been donated from the Thruston 863 Air Training Corps Parents Committee to get the Salmon Trust started.
[/b]

So…

  1. They are calling themself “Parents Committee” and not “CWC”…
  2. The Squadron can afford to donate a large amount of money to a “trust” outwith control of Squadron / Wing / Region / ACO etc…

It’s better than that… most of the Chairman’s emails are on Sqn headed paper and are signed “For and on behalf of the Parent Trustees”.

[quote=“abz” post=7477]Thanks to “Celticmentor” for the links…makes very interesting reading.

The bit that caught my eye, from the 2010 report reads:

The [b]Salmon Trust

The Management Committee now have funds available of £102,062, most of which has been donated from the Thruston 863 Air Training Corps Parents Committee to get the Salmon Trust started.
[/b]
[/quote]

I only had a quick glance at the link and was astounded at the amount of money they have going through, although i would love to be the lawyer/solicitor who deals with the salmon trust, he/she has earned a fortune over the past 3 years!

It looks at a quick glance to have had around 200k through its books in 2/3 years. Did someone not think why has the Sqn given nearly 200k of money over to this “salmon trust”!? when some squadrons struggle to make 20k in 3 years never mind give it away!?

[quote=“abz” post=7477]Thanks to “Celticmentor” for the links…makes very interesting reading.

The bit that caught my eye, from the 2010 report reads:

The [b]Salmon Trust

The Management Committee now have funds available of £102,062, most of which has been donated from the Thruston 863 Air Training Corps Parents Committee to get the Salmon Trust started.
[/b]

So…

  1. They are calling themself “Parents Committee” and not “CWC”…
  2. The Squadron can afford to donate a large amount of money to a “trust” outwith control of Squadron / Wing / Region / ACO etc…[/quote]

£100,000 transferred outside of the control of the organisation which originally raised the funds, by a “charity” which seems to have been set up for that express purpose…

I’ve a very good mind to look at this “professionally”. A lot of questions need to be asked of the individuals controlling the Salmon Trust, and of the civcom, past and present, of 863 Sqn. The more I sit and look at this, the more I’m wondering what happened between the £100,000 leaving the Sqn’s funds in 2010 and that sum dwindling to £75,000 by this year.

£25k spent on postage writing letters?

Must be those pesky lawyers taking advantage :wink:

If there are donations like this, you have to wonder who the hell was checking the accounts and would have to be declared on the F60. Which again raises the question, does anyone look at the F60s and ask questions. At the AGM accounts have to be presented.

On the point of the accommodation. On my old sqn we had the “over 50 for 3 periods” (in fact it was 5) that should have, as then, got another hut. Note should have. So when it is identified that you should have extra accommodation, the wheels move at a geologic rate and unless you maintain it for years and years, it never happens. I saw it not only with us, but 3 other sqns as well. To this end I feel that the Defence Estates should be more open to sqns doing it for themselves. It can go through approval processes and sign off or an approved style by DE, but if a sqn wants to have extra space, be that rooms or storage, they should be allowed if they can self-finance.
Let’s face it the old Spooners are/were no more than glorified sheds and the new “Spooners” come on the back of lorries in sections and are bolted together, so hardly what I would call a permanent building. The “bolt on” to the Spooner we have, isn’t anything to write home about in terms of quality. I’m sure I could get something better through B&Q, Screwfix, etc etc.

They have set the scaling at 180sqm and do not want to budge from this, I had this argument over increasing storage to free up capacity in the existing building- We had a waiting list because of space but I could only have more space if I was already too large in Numbers, which I could not do due to space- the perfect Catch 22!
What is interesting is Third party letting of your building by RFCA- you only keep 10% of the money…it is the MOD’s building you see.

The policy now is in most cases to build Jt Cadet centers so perhaps you should be careful what you wish for lol