Adult training and CFAV streaming

Adult Staff Execs
61

[quote=“Red Bull Gives You Wings” post=7222]Couldn’t agree more.

Out of the 10 of us on my BIC only 3 of us were interested in going for a commission. The rest had no interest and believed they would be of more use to the cadets as a SNCO.

I have noticed on this thread and also at ARRSE and E-GOAT that if you aspire to commission in the cadets you are looked at as some sort of walt. I encourage my cadets to be the best they can be and to aspire for their star levels and promotion. On the flip side, on this thread, ARRSE and E-GOAT, the opposite appears to be true for adult staff who aspire!

As has also been mentioned, I heard numerous whispers in ATC and ACF about people who are SNCO’s as they failed officer selection. What a load of rubbish. I used to work with a guy who was an adult warrant officer in the ATC. He had been approached for, but was not interested in, becoming an officer. Why? Because he loved what he was doing and wasn’t interested in changing it. Like I have said throughout this thread - if an adult joins and wants to use their existing skills we should look to utilise them (if suitable). If that is as an officer or SNCO then we should offer them as much support as possible. If someone joins and wants a change (and they are suitable) then we should encourage them.

Maybe a new motto should be introduced for those who are in charge of adult staff in the cadet forces:

“Seek to retain, not to refuse”[/quote]

Read This: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8064347/2013%20Implemantation%20of%20Adult%20Training%20document.docx

I nicked it from someone from the acf forum.

You obviously have done BIC which is the basic course that every PI has to go through (are you a PI?). It is the new induction training for ACF instructors and it explains all the things you need to do regardless of previous experience and qualifications. It might be some use to you if you are a PI as you might not have read this document yet?

Its not that the CF’s dont accept or recognize your qualifications its just that they need to make sure that you are on the same level as them, thats why all these rules are in place and at the end of the day, they want to make sure you are on the same level so you can give the best experience to us cadets and to make sure you are competent and giving cadets the same information as all the other instructors

Thanks
Woody

62

I was about to put that file up Woody :slight_smile:

The file attached says exactly what it is, a brand new training program. once the first batch are done i am sure it will be amended to show a more realistic timescale, although by the looks of it some county’s are taking the 24 months as gospel at the moment. I would imaging once they are running them the timescale will quickly half to 12 months max, ours will take around 7 months.

I am quite lucky by the sounds of things that our training team are switched on and i am the only non ex ACF cadet (although i am an ex cadet and ex CFAV in the ATC) so our course will be going at a fair pace once we start on the APC training (i will just need to study to keep up), compared to other courses where there might be people with zero experience.

Pete

63

Haha sorry, the early bird catches the worm :wink:

64

I’m sorry to post again but i’m confused.

What skills can you offer by having a commission that you cannot offer as a CI or SNCO?

Many squadrons have CI Training Officers or Adjutants that were traditionally uniformed roles.

I’ve seen many good commissioned officers run very good lectures - effectively doing a CI’s primary role.

My CO think’s my skill set is more akin to a commissioned officer but i’m still able to deliver a good experience as a CI by being able to do the admin, do lectures and support the SNCO among other things.

If you have the commitment and the skills you will get a commission but why anyone would think they should just be give it because of their skill set is beyond me.

Whats that age old saying - You get out of it what you put into it.

65

It’s nice to see we’ve given somebody that wishes to join our depleted officer corps a nice friendly welcome…

66

[quote=“woodhouse2152” post=7226][quote=“Red Bull Gives You Wings” post=7222]Couldn’t agree more.

Out of the 10 of us on my BIC only 3 of us were interested in going for a commission. The rest had no interest and believed they would be of more use to the cadets as a SNCO.

I have noticed on this thread and also at ARRSE and E-GOAT that if you aspire to commission in the cadets you are looked at as some sort of walt. I encourage my cadets to be the best they can be and to aspire for their star levels and promotion. On the flip side, on this thread, ARRSE and E-GOAT, the opposite appears to be true for adult staff who aspire!

As has also been mentioned, I heard numerous whispers in ATC and ACF about people who are SNCO’s as they failed officer selection. What a load of rubbish. I used to work with a guy who was an adult warrant officer in the ATC. He had been approached for, but was not interested in, becoming an officer. Why? Because he loved what he was doing and wasn’t interested in changing it. Like I have said throughout this thread - if an adult joins and wants to use their existing skills we should look to utilise them (if suitable). If that is as an officer or SNCO then we should offer them as much support as possible. If someone joins and wants a change (and they are suitable) then we should encourage them.

Maybe a new motto should be introduced for those who are in charge of adult staff in the cadet forces:

“Seek to retain, not to refuse”[/quote]

Read This: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8064347/2013%20Implemantation%20of%20Adult%20Training%20document.docx

I nicked it from someone from the acf forum.

You obviously have done BIC which is the basic course that every PI has to go through (are you a PI?). It is the new induction training for ACF instructors and it explains all the things you need to do regardless of previous experience and qualifications. It might be some use to you if you are a PI as you might not have read this document yet?

Its not that the CF’s dont accept or recognize your qualifications its just that they need to make sure that you are on the same level as them, thats why all these rules are in place and at the end of the day, they want to make sure you are on the same level so you can give the best experience to us cadets and to make sure you are competent and giving cadets the same information as all the other instructors

Thanks
Woody[/quote]

Woodhouse

I have read it and the other documents it refers to.

I understand what you are saying about ensuring we are at the same level. I also appreciate what you are saying about qualifications. However, drill is drill so a Pirbright Drill Instructor knows Drill. Does he really need to spend 2 1/2 hours being taught left/right/about turns, march, halt, salute front/left/right. Or should they accept his qualification? Alternatively, they could run a test asking to see those moves. If he/she gets it spot on he/she gets a pass.

Cadets are never given the same information by adults. We all have our own interest areas and things you’re good at. As such you will know more than someone who has no interest in the same subject or isn’t that good at it. I’m big on dress, my DC isn’t. I have an interest in First Aid (although i’m not allowed to teach it) but my DC doesn’t. My DC hates map and compass and thinks i’m better at it, i’m not sure if I am better at it but I teach it. We both love drill but I would say my DC is much better at it!

67

He chose to wear Khaki over Blue so he deserves all he’s got

:wink:

68

I understand what your getting at but the the pirbright DI is an Army DI and has done Army Drill and has completed the course from pirbright which I believe is an Army Base…

Does this DI know RAF Drill + Ceremonial? If not then he would obviously need to brush up on AP818… As I said I dont think it would be a good idea to teach ATC Cadets Army Drill because we are affiliated to the RAF not the army.

If he has already done a DI’s course but it is RAF Drill then I suppose it should be fine for him to teach ATC cadets.

Do you understand what Im tring to say? Because its difficult to explain in writing haha

Thanks
Woody

69

[quote=“aerobat” post=7229]I’m sorry to post again but i’m confused.

What skills can you offer by having a commission that you cannot offer as a CI or SNCO?

Whats that age old saying - You get out of it what you put into it.[/quote]

This is a very interesting point, I aspire to have a commission at some point into the future, chances are that I will become an SNCO on my way to this. However, as a CI that I currently am there is very little that I cannot do, that I want to.

CI - The only thing I can’t to is a Drill Instructors Course, can’t take a command position. But I can gain Shooting/AT qualifications and then use them to ensure that the cadets are able to access the best cadet experience possible. I’m also able to say no to anything I don’t want to do and can turn up when I want.

SNCO - I get a uniform, am able to claim remuneration for activities, can complete a Drill Instructors Course. Be responsible for Drill/Dress & Discipline on a unit, or at a larger event. In some wings, take command of a squadron or take a position on wing staff, as a subject specialist.

Officer - I get a uniform, including No. 1s :wink: am able to claim remuneration for activities, will be encouraged to organise activities and to take command positions at units, move on to being a WSO, and potentially become a Wing Commander.

Overall The desire to go into uniform is because I want to have a command position in the future, and some remuneration for the amount of time I give would be nice. But at the end of the day this is my hobby as much as it is the cadets, and there will come a time where I have enough and walk away, but I’m not beating myself up at the moment because I’m not an officer. At the present time following 6 years cadet service I am not in a position where I want a command position, because I would not be able to do the job, but I can do what I want to at the present time, which is put smiles on cadets faces.

Red Bull Gives You Wings, if I had a similar attitude as your self I wouldn’t have given up 2 weekends to complete my SAAI course (Unpaid), be giving up another 2 weekends for my SR Course (Unpaid Again), along with all the other weekends where I am exercising my qualifications/skills, because as a CI that wouldn’t suit my skillset.

70

[quote=“woodhouse2152” post=7233][quote=“Red Bull Gives You Wings” post=7231]
I understand what you are saying about ensuring we are at the same level. I also appreciate what you are saying about qualifications. However, drill is drill so a Pirbright Drill Instructor knows Drill. Does he really need to spend 2 1/2 hours being taught left/right/about turns, march, halt, salute front/left/right. Or should they accept his qualification? Alternatively, they could run a test asking to see those moves. If he/she gets it spot on he/she gets a pass.
[/quote]

I understand what your getting at but the the pirbright DI is an Army DI and has done Army Drill and has completed the course from pirbright which I believe is an Army Base…

Does this DI know RAF Drill + Ceremonial? If not then he would obviously need to brush up on AP818… As I said I dont think it would be a good idea to teach ATC Cadets Army Drill because we are affiliated to the RAF not the army.

If he has already done a DI’s course but it is RAF Drill then I suppose it should be fine for him to teach ATC cadets.

Do you understand what Im tring to say? Because its difficult to explain in writing haha

Thanks
Woody[/quote]

Woody,

This Ex Army DI, has joined the ACF, so knowing AP818 has no relevance.

I would to know RBGYW, what you propose he does whilst the rest learn drill, having someone who knows it in the squad alongside you can e very beneficial for those in the squad that don’t!!

71

[quote=“themajor” post=7235]This Ex Army DI, has joined the ACF, so knowing AP818 has no relevance.
[/quote]

Ohh so he is an Ex-Reg wanting to join the ACF not the ATC?

I thought he was hoping to join the ATC, if not then my bad for not understanding

72

[quote=“woodhouse2152” post=7233][quote=“Red Bull Gives You Wings” post=7231]
I understand what you are saying about ensuring we are at the same level. I also appreciate what you are saying about qualifications. However, drill is drill so a Pirbright Drill Instructor knows Drill. Does he really need to spend 2 1/2 hours being taught left/right/about turns, march, halt, salute front/left/right. Or should they accept his qualification? Alternatively, they could run a test asking to see those moves. If he/she gets it spot on he/she gets a pass.
[/quote]

I understand what your getting at but the the pirbright DI is an Army DI and has done Army Drill and has completed the course from pirbright which I believe is an Army Base…

Does this DI know RAF Drill + Ceremonial? If not then he would obviously need to brush up on AP818… As I said I dont think it would be a good idea to teach ATC Cadets Army Drill because we are affiliated to the RAF not the army.

If he has already done a DI’s course but it is RAF Drill then I suppose it should be fine for him to teach ATC cadets.

Do you understand what Im tring to say? Because its difficult to explain in writing haha

Thanks
Woody[/quote]

Sorry Woody, I mustn’t have explained myself correctly. I didn’t meant that a Pirbirght Instructor would teach ATC/RAF Drill, I meant that he shouldn’t have to attend another course to teach Army Drill to Army Cadets.

73

[quote=“Red Bull Gives You Wings” post=7238]
Sorry Woody, I mustn’t have explained myself correctly. I didn’t meant that a Pirbirght Instructor would teach ATC/RAF Drill, I meant that he shouldn’t have to attend another course to teach Army Drill to Army Cadets.[/quote]

Ohh ok i understand now, sorry for misunderstanding :L

Well I dont see why the ACF will have a problem of him teaching ACF cadets if he has already done the course, I dont see the point why he would need to do a whole new complete course with the ACF!

Maybe the ACF are just being really anal?

74

[quote=“themajor” post=7234][quote=“aerobat” post=7229]I’m sorry to post again but i’m confused.

What skills can you offer by having a commission that you cannot offer as a CI or SNCO?

Whats that age old saying - You get out of it what you put into it.[/quote]

This is a very interesting point, I aspire to have a commission at some point into the future, chances are that I will become an SNCO on my way to this. However, as a CI that I currently am there is very little that I cannot do, that I want to.

CI - The only thing I can’t to is a Drill Instructors Course, can’t take a command position. But I can gain Shooting/AT qualifications and then use them to ensure that the cadets are able to access the best cadet experience possible. I’m also able to say no to anything I don’t want to do and can turn up when I want.

SNCO - I get a uniform, am able to claim remuneration for activities, can complete a Drill Instructors Course. Be responsible for Drill/Dress & Discipline on a unit, or at a larger event. In some wings, take command of a squadron or take a position on wing staff, as a subject specialist.

Officer - I get a uniform, including No. 1s :wink: am able to claim remuneration for activities, will be encouraged to organise activities and to take command positions at units, move on to being a WSO, and potentially become a Wing Commander.

Overall The desire to go into uniform is because I want to have a command position in the future, and some remuneration for the amount of time I give would be nice. But at the end of the day this is my hobby as much as it is the cadets, and there will come a time where I have enough and walk away, but I’m not beating myself up at the moment because I’m not an officer. At the present time following 6 years cadet service I am not in a position where I want a command position, because I would not be able to do the job, but I can do what I want to at the present time, which is put smiles on cadets faces.

Red Bull Gives You Wings, if I had a similar attitude as your self I wouldn’t have given up 2 weekends to complete my SAAI course (Unpaid), be giving up another 2 weekends for my SR Course (Unpaid Again), along with all the other weekends where I am exercising my qualifications/skills, because as a CI that wouldn’t suit my skillset.[/quote]

CI’s are different to PI’s. On my BIC we were told that we can’t do a SAAI course until we’ve got rank, we can’t shoot weapons until we get rank (I think the shooting has now been taken out of the AIC), can’t get AT qualifications until we have rank. I can’t get many qualifications without rank. If that is my County or across the ACF i’m not sure. I’m sure PeteChesh will know if things are different where he is.

75

[quote=“themajor” post=7235][quote=“woodhouse2152” post=7233][quote=“Red Bull Gives You Wings” post=7231]
I understand what you are saying about ensuring we are at the same level. I also appreciate what you are saying about qualifications. However, drill is drill so a Pirbright Drill Instructor knows Drill. Does he really need to spend 2 1/2 hours being taught left/right/about turns, march, halt, salute front/left/right. Or should they accept his qualification? Alternatively, they could run a test asking to see those moves. If he/she gets it spot on he/she gets a pass.
[/quote]

I understand what your getting at but the the pirbright DI is an Army DI and has done Army Drill and has completed the course from pirbright which I believe is an Army Base…

Does this DI know RAF Drill + Ceremonial? If not then he would obviously need to brush up on AP818… As I said I dont think it would be a good idea to teach ATC Cadets Army Drill because we are affiliated to the RAF not the army.

If he has already done a DI’s course but it is RAF Drill then I suppose it should be fine for him to teach ATC cadets.

Do you understand what Im tring to say? Because its difficult to explain in writing haha

Thanks
Woody[/quote]

Woody,

This Ex Army DI, has joined the ACF, so knowing AP818 has no relevance.

I would to know RBGYW, what you propose he does whilst the rest learn drill, having someone who knows it in the squad alongside you can e very beneficial for those in the squad that don’t!![/quote]

Well, after our BIC we were asked to give feedback. The overwhelming comment was that 2 types of courses should be run:

A former military/ex-cadet course; and
A civilian course.

The former course could be consolidated and could move at a relatively brisk pace with time within the training programme that could be used to brush up on things where issues have been identified. The civilian course would teach you from scratch.

The County listened to us and kept it as one course, made the course longer and more in depth (which has caused 2 ex-regs to drop out!!)

76

In the cadet forces, so far as I can see, DI is an instructional techniques course: there are certainly plenty of ATF-qualified DIs who seem to have scant knowledge of actual correct drill movements and I’d not be surprised if the same were the case in the ACF world.

As such, I would expect that any British DI course (ATF, RAF, Army, even the fishies) would retain validity (and mincing-with-a-stick privileges) in the cadet forces so long as the holders of said qualification made sure that their knowledge and skills were current and correct.

77

[quote=“Red Bull Gives You Wings” post=7240]
CI’s are different to PI’s. On my BIC we were told that we can’t do a SAAI course until we’ve got rank, we can’t shoot weapons until we get rank (I think the shooting has now been taken out of the AIC), can’t get AT qualifications until we have rank. I can’t get many qualifications without rank. If that is my County or across the ACF i’m not sure. I’m sure PeteChesh will know if things are different where he is.[/quote]

Pretty much spot on, your only focus before you get your Sgt is getting your Sgt stripes, End Of.

The only thing that is wrong with the above is that you MUST do your Basic Shooting and Coaching course before becoming a Sgt, you are not allowed to do your 7 days AIC without it.

Pete

78

You are indeed correct. I forgot about that course.

79

I am impressed reading that document and the training induction process, it does leave flex for prior experience I just think as it is a new thing they are trying to gather stats on it so are all running the full one.
It would be like having dual stream OIC/SSIC but it would not work with our system. Some elements are delivered within our BASIC and existing system and I think the way we have it better suits us really as a lot of our development is post appointment in most cases.
At least the ACF is moving with the times.
One of the problems that I bet a lot of people have come across is that some ex Regulars/TA etc are not quite what they seem with the occasional embellishment of actual experience involved, I was caught out by a WO who I inherited who had been around the Wing for years, when he applied for CTC it came out that he had never served a day in anything in spite of a chestful of medals and Para wings- I assumed, wrongly as it turned out that someone had checked. Once he was flagged up and left loads of people said they thought he was odd but as they had no experience themselves they did not feel able to challenge him!
The assumption I never make anymore is that someone is who they seem unless they have been thoroughly checked out, I have had a SAAI from the RAF Regiment join us recently, who after he was found to be teaching cadets weapons training and a bit of digging was found to be an Oggie Gunner who had not completed Oggie Gunners training!

I think once they stop Wings inventing extra pre pre boards for Filter Interviews and SNCO Boards the system will get better on our side.

As an aside what is the fastest anyone has come across for Commissioning?

80

I hear what you’re saying there asqncddr.

When I did my period in the ATC there was another CI there who was very strange. He started to tell me things about his personal life that weren’t making sense and then he told me he had worked for the same company as me. I dug a bit deeper e.g. where he had worked, when he had worked there and who he had worked with - he didn’t know the latter. I then carried out some covert enquiries at work. No-one had ever heard of him. I discussed this with the Sqn Cdr privately and he began to monitor said individual more closely. No idea what the outcome was as I left before it developed too much further.

There are some very strange people attracted to the cadet forces and the reserve forces!!