Adult training and CFAV streaming

Adult Staff Execs
1

Ladies and Gents

I’m a CFAV in the ACF and have a few questions as someone considering making the move from there to the ATC:

  1. If I were to attend an ATC Sqn what would my role be?

  2. What training do adults get? At the moment I have been on a basic course, then I have to go on an intermediate course, then I have to go on a First Aid course, then a Skill At Arms course and then an Advanced course, just to get my stripes. This is expected to take 2 years assuming that I can meet all the training obligations and don’t miss out on any dates.

  3. In the ATC are you streamed as an NCO or an Officer when you join? When I joined the ACF I was taken on and told that I could become an officer. The thing they neglected to tell me was that it was going to take 4 years to get my first pip. Now I appreciate that its not all about promotion but my skill set lies within an officers role and that is why I joined. I was told in my interview that those skills would be welcomed and I would be streamed down the officer route.

I’m disillusioned. I’m in a detachment that has no equipment and I mean NO equipment. It’s been like this for years. The cadets can’t even get uniforms. I’ve been in my detachment for 7 months and the cadets haven’t even seen weapons let alone been trained so they can use them! :mad:

I look forward to your responses.

2

  1. What would you want it to be…? Depending on skill sets, experience, and what you want to get involved in (and what the squadron needs) this is a very open question!

  2. Standard would be… as a CI (so no uniform…) a Basic/Induction course. Then if you look to go into uniform, a pre-uniform course (varies from wing to wing), then if you are successful (NCO) it’s a week at RAF Cranwell at some point in your first year after appointment to SGT (ATC). Should you want and be successful in going for a commission (local interview, wing board, and OASC few days at Cranwell) its the same, an initial course at Cranwell within 1 year.
    Specialist courses - SAAI, RCO, AT etc, are entirely optional, but will become mandatory for further promotion.

  3. Not streamed when you join, but the application is based upon OC’s recommendation in the first instance. Some people may be more suitable to officer or NCO, some best as CI.

3

I am pretty interested in this post as i did the opposite went from the ATC to the ACF (albeit with a few years gap)

This new training program you are talking about is a “maximum” of 2 years, we have been told to expect to go on our AIC in August/October this year (our selection weekend was 4 weeks ago) and will then get our stripes. This is obviously dependent on your personal experience and your own ability to learn, but to be honest you only have to learn to be able to teach 2 star level (leading cadet in the ATC) so isn’t really that much of a push.

As for the officer role, you need to serve as an SI for 1 year before you can apply to become an officer (and be 21), Ive seen far far to many people join up the ATC become an officer immediately and then leave 2 months later due to the immediate responsibility put on an officer with nearly zero experience, at least as a SGT you will get to experience all the ACF/ATC have to offer without the added bureaucracy and responsibilities and then decide.

As for your detachment, we have very very little being based in a school but from what i have seen (i have only been down a few times and we are now doing our training away from the det) the DC, the staff and the cadets really make the most of it. I personally would much rather help out at a detachment that really needed my assistance, rather than one that was running perfectly. Why not be the person who changes the detachment for the better?

4

Don’t forget the minimum time of one year as a CI before being able to apply for Uniformed posts.

5

Where’s that written? Sounds like a local rule to me.

6

[quote=“petechesh” post=7059]I am pretty interested in this post as i did the opposite went from the ATC to the ACF (albeit with a few years gap)

This new training program you are talking about is a “maximum” of 2 years, we have been told to expect to go on our AIC in August/October this year (our selection weekend was 4 weeks ago) and will then get our stripes. This is obviously dependent on your personal experience and your own ability to learn, but to be honest you only have to learn to be able to teach 2 star level (leading cadet in the ATC) so isn’t really that much of a push.

As for the officer role, you need to serve as an SI for 1 year before you can apply to become an officer (and be 21), Ive seen far far to many people join up the ATC become an officer immediately and then leave 2 months later due to the immediate responsibility put on an officer with nearly zero experience, at least as a SGT you will get to experience all the ACF/ATC have to offer without the added bureaucracy and responsibilities and then decide.

As for your detachment, we have very very little being based in a school but from what i have seen (i have only been down a few times and we are now doing our training away from the det) the DC, the staff and the cadets really make the most of it. I personally would much rather help out at a detachment that really needed my assistance, rather than one that was running perfectly. Why not be the person who changes the detachment for the better?[/quote]

Pete

I don’t know what County you are in but it will take me and the 9 other adults from our selection weekend 22 months to get our stripes and none of us have missed a course yet. Even if I apply for a commission straight after passing my AIC (which I won’t be allowed to do) I have been told it is an 18 month process to get my first pip (assuming I pass CFCB first time). That would take me to 3 years 4 months. If, as you say, I have to wait a year that’ll take me to the 4 year 4 month mark. And this being for someone who was recommended to go down the officer route from the outset.

As a comparison, if I were to join the Reserve Forces I could expect to be commissioned within 18 months and ready to lead soldiers into battle in Afghanistan. What exactly is the ACF wanting from its officers? Training as a teacher only lasts 3 years. We are neither regular officers leading soldiers into battle and we are not teachers expected to have expert knowledge of a particular subject. So why does it take so long?

My age exceeds 21 by some years and prior to running my own business with the associated bureaucracy and responsibility I held an extremely responsible job (one of those jobs that people say ‘I couldn’t do that job’). And that is why I feel more than capable of becoming an officer. Whilst I have no experience of running a detachment, being a SI beforehand doesn’t appear to make a jot of difference. My current DC had been a SI for years before getting commissioned and by his own admission didn’t have a clue when he was handed the keys to the detachment.

I believe I would be more than capable as an officer and that was agreed by the ACF when I joined. But, it is hard to motivate yourself when you know what you are good at and that you will have to wait at least 4 years to be in a position where my skills will most benefit the cadets. I know it sounds cheesy but i’m not in the ACF for myself (unlike some), I am in it for the cadets.

As for being the person that changes the detachment for the better, I wish I was in that position. I hold no weight with County and wouldn’t until I became a SNCO or Officer. The DC has his own ideas and isn’t open to suggestions…so what am I to do?

7

CI for 12 months-It’s Corps policy for walk in applicants and has been for a long time.

How do you know you will pass Westbury or Cranwell for that matter? You might do all this work and fail, and I bet you would then leave as it happens a lot in the ACF.

Remember that the ACF trains all it new entrants to be of use as instructors and people need to build experience and knowledge before being let loose in charge of things. This emphasis if different to the ACO which views Uniformed staff as it’s generalists and organisers/leaders.

Sure you can take SAAI and RCO and other qualifications but there is a large amount of ACO staff who are not really instructors in the ACF sense. CI’s occupy a lot of teaching space in the ACO and there is nothing comparable in the ACF.

The ACF have a common base standard. If you were commissioned you would need to do the KGVI course to progress for example and to get on this you would need to be a SAAI with some experience in the subject- so the training is progressive and is designed to develop you skills, which I assume you do not have as you have not said whether you are ex Reg or STAB.

If you are ex Reg/TA instructor in these subjects and they are making you do this then they are being pedantic beyond belief.

But you could chuck this all away and hope the ACO like you and recommend you apply for uniform but it’s a bit of a gamble…where would you go next?

8

What’s your reference for this? I was under the impression that the Corps states it’s only 3 months you have to wait.

9

Which ACO policy states that 12 month rule then? Genuinely interested to know as I don’t often miss things and I don’t recall this being promulgated in orders, P-Letters or anywhere else.

10

I think you’re getting your wire crossed. When a CI is appointed they are on 3 months probation.

The policy is enforced by P branch at Cranwell- EX Cadets may go direct to Uniform but not walk ins with no prior contact with the ACO.

11

So it’s not written down anywhere?

12

I have seen it in the guidance notes they issue and they will not appoint anyone under this length of service. The commissioning review paper went into this in some detail as well.

Your Wing might be the one not doing this.

I don’t think they just make up the rule do you?

13

You are joking right?! Im assuming you’ve been around longer than 5 minutes?

Squadrons, wings, regions making up their own rules and passing them off as gospel is the biggest past time in the ATC!!!

14

This is Corps policy and has been for along time- I have just been told that it does appear somewhere in very small print.

I was talking about Cranwell making it up BTW. In my experience , with the exception of one Regional commandant all the made up rules come from our volunteer cadre, either Wing CO or Speshulists…

So wait around long enough and you too will have chance to make people jump through some extra hoops!

15

In my experience certain regional commandants are the worst :wink:

16

So it’s not written down. Or in P-Letters. Or in APs or ACAIs. So it’s not really policy is it? If it was, the it would be available to all OC Sqns to manage the expectations of their incumbent volunteers. Sounds like balls to me unless you can post the written-down policy rather than hear say or a document you’ve ‘seen’.

17

If I had the time I would find out where it says it- I am assured it does otherwise Cranwell would not enforce it would they. If I were not busy working I would. That you do not know this means that you are:

a. Not an OC squadron.
b. Not being kept informed.

Do you honestly think it is acceptable to allow people who contact the ACO with a view to join with no background or previous relationship with the ACO should be allowed to go into uniform after just 3 month probationary period? (That’s the answer I got when I asked why it was)

18

[quote=“asqncdr” post=7094]CI for 12 months-It’s Corps policy for walk in applicants and has been for a long time.

How do you know you will pass Westbury or Cranwell for that matter? You might do all this work and fail, and I bet you would then leave as it happens a lot in the ACF.

Remember that the ACF trains all it new entrants to be of use as instructors and people need to build experience and knowledge before being let loose in charge of things. This emphasis if different to the ACO which views Uniformed staff as it’s generalists and organisers/leaders.

Sure you can take SAAI and RCO and other qualifications but there is a large amount of ACO staff who are not really instructors in the ACF sense. CI’s occupy a lot of teaching space in the ACO and there is nothing comparable in the ACF.

The ACF have a common base standard. If you were commissioned you would need to do the KGVI course to progress for example and to get on this you would need to be a SAAI with some experience in the subject- so the training is progressive and is designed to develop you skills, which I assume you do not have as you have not said whether you are ex Reg or STAB.

If you are ex Reg/TA instructor in these subjects and they are making you do this then they are being pedantic beyond belief.

But you could chuck this all away and hope the ACO like you and recommend you apply for uniform but it’s a bit of a gamble…where would you go next?[/quote]

I appreciate what you are saying but it’s not as simple as turning up and then going straight to Westbury. I am also not saying that that should be the case. But, if someone has been identified as being officer material from the outset (as were 2 others on my selection weekend) why do we have to wait 4 years to get that far?

Yes, we could fail, but before we get to CFCB there are a number of hoops to jump through:

Interview with a Major who will assess your suitability.
If you pass that you then go to an interview with the Commandant.
If you pass that you go to Pre-CFCB.
If you pass that you go to CFCB.

If you then fail, then you fail!

CFCB does not assess your ability to teach the APC syllabus. It assesses literacy, problem solving ability, the ability to work as part of a team and individual leadership potential. This is the same way as the regular and reserve forces.

Maybe the ACO have gotten things right. What if someone wants to volunteer but doesn’t want to be an instructor but is the best leader and organiser in the world. The ACF would turn them away as they are looking for instructors. Would the ACO accept them with open arms? Have the ACF then lost someone who may well have been the best DC in the country (I am not saying that I am the best leader and organiser in the world. I do have instructional abilities).

The ACF is short of officers (maybe the ACO is as well) and as I understand it there are ACF detachments and ATC Squadrons short of adult staff around the country. Why is this? Is this because the recruitment process is designed to put people off (especially if you have to spend 12 months as a CI before being allowed to don a uniform - where is your sense of belonging)? It is easier to join the regular and reserve forces. It puts off those who have extensive military experience. I know of a case where an adult with nearly 3 decades of military experience and medals from multiple theatres plus experience of teaching cadets was told he could join but would have to wait 4 years for his commission. I know of another case where someone with 12 years military experience was told that he would have to wait 2 years for his stripes. Both walked as they felt insulted that their skills weren’t recognised. I’m sure there are numerous examples. We shouldn’t be closing the door in the face of people prepared to volunteer, especially when these people could have chosen to volunteer with the reserve forces instead where their commitment is only 27 days a year (made up of week nights, weekends and camp). Yet the commitment for cadets is much higher and I was told in my interview that the commitment was around 45 days (made up of week nights, weekends and camp).

Maybe i’ve gone off on a bit of a tangent here but my questions still remain:

Why don’t we recruit people into roles which best utilise their existing skills (where that individual wants to use those skills)? I’m not saying you shouldn’t develop their APC knowledge or ATC equivalent.

Why do we make people wait 2 years in the ACF to get stripes and 4 years to get a commission?

Why do the ACO make people wait 12 months to get a uniform?

And finally, what do they hope to achieve by doing this?!

19

[quote=“asqncdr” post=7104]If I had the time I would find out where it says it- I am assured it does otherwise Cranwell would not enforce it would they. If I were not busy working I would. That you do not know this means that you are:

a. Not an OC squadron.
b. Not being kept informed.

Do you honestly think it is acceptable to allow people who contact the ACO with a view to join with no background or previous relationship with the ACO should be allowed to go into uniform after just 3 month probationary period? (That’s the answer I got when I asked why it was)[/quote]

Yes.

Police Officers are given uniform while still in their probation.
Firefighters are given uniform while still in probation.
Ambulance crews are given uniform while still in their probation.
Regular and reserve forces are given uniform before passing Phase 1, let alone Phase 2.
St John Ambulance and Red Cross issue uniforms once you’ve passed your event first aid courses which may well be 4 weeks after joining.

And on and on and on…

So, why is the cadet uniform worth more than every other uniform in the world? Especially, when it wouldn’t be issued until you passed your probation which must mean that the OC has said you’re a good chap or chappess and deserves to become a member of the ACO!

20

People taken on for full time posts you describe have a few more background and suitability checks than we do at the outset. Are you claiming that your Wing has never had a CI recruited who turns out to substantially less than he appeared to be on first contact? This is part of the reason the formal interview has been introduced for CI’s. Non of the above look after peoples children do they (with minimal training)

In reality it takes around 10 months to get all the paperwork and clearances sorted out, once that is sorted it is onwards to Boards, bear in mind we are talking about people with no military experience, and no prior knowledge of the Corps, just what possible use would they be with no development? Only a few are ready to go forwards given the absolute lack of Personal development on offer.

And having a shortage of staff is not the driver for making the process easier, nor is not getting rid of people for the same reason!