[quote=“Red Bull Gives You Wings” post=7043]Ladies and Gents
I’m a CFAV in the ACF and have a few questions as someone considering making the move from there to the ATC:
If I were to attend an ATC Sqn what would my role be?
What training do adults get? At the moment I have been on a basic course, then I have to go on an intermediate course, then I have to go on a First Aid course, then a Skill At Arms course and then an Advanced course, just to get my stripes. This is expected to take 2 years assuming that I can meet all the training obligations and don’t miss out on any dates.
In the ATC are you streamed as an NCO or an Officer when you join? When I joined the ACF I was taken on and told that I could become an officer. The thing they neglected to tell me was that it was going to take 4 years to get my first pip. Now I appreciate that its not all about promotion but my skill set lies within an officers role and that is why I joined. I was told in my interview that those skills would be welcomed and I would be streamed down the officer route.
I’m disillusioned. I’m in a detachment that has no equipment and I mean NO equipment. It’s been like this for years. The cadets can’t even get uniforms. I’ve been in my detachment for 7 months and the cadets haven’t even seen weapons let alone been trained so they can use them! :mad:
I look forward to your responses.[/quote]
Your role would be dependent on your squadron, how well staffed they are and what skills you have. If there’s fewer staff, you’ll probably end up doing more than 1 role!
Everyone goes on a BASIC course, which explains to a complete newbie how the world of RAF/ATC works. You’ll get some child protection training, and dependent on wing might get some explanation of processes and admin. Also explains how the mess system works for those that don’t know (if it’s hosted on a station!). Other training is down to you and how well off your wing is. You can do BELA, ML, First Aid, PTLLS, Shooting, through CCAT AT qualifications, D1 minibus drivers licence, sports qualifications (like CSLA), drill instruction courses, role-specific courses like how to be trg off, adj etc. Ask and you’ll get!
You’re not officially streamed as anything, although some wings will suggest you go NCO before officer. Ours is fairly simple, and the choice is yours. Be aware that the process will have changed since you last saw it, and now officers must pass a wing board before passing OASC. NCO process is the same as before i.e. Wing board then regional board before appointment.
If you’re that disillusioned, have you been able to do anything about it? I appreciate you might not be in the best place to do so, but there are always solutions to problems, even if they’re short term fixes.
In other post you say you helped create a sea cadet unit from the ground up - why not use those skills to improve your current detachment?
Don’t forget the grass isn’t always greener on the other side, but then I don’t know where you are from so don’t know how true that is.
I don’t want to put you off joining the ATC (because we could use all the staff we can get), but just wonder if you’re choosing to jump ship because things are getting a bit tough, or if you genuinely prefer our organisation.
It is not inflammatory advice just being honest with you. Even if it had expired 7 years ago the ACO would look to re instating your commission, I have seen this happen with people after 9 years out- they had in the interim worked at a senior level with DOE so had shedfulls of Youth leader experience in spite of having been a Pers branch man while in. Trying to timeline what you are saying you have been in the ACF 7 months and at the point you joined it was seven years since your TA Commission had ended (of course it never ends does it) which leaves the window that you would have applied to the ACO for a commission…How long after leaving the TA was that I wonder?
You’re right, I don’t know you, you might be the king of all things Military and cadets but I can’t detect any interest in, or experience in, any subject remotely connected with the Air, The Air Force or Air cadets apart from a 3 month period at some time in the past, which leaves me to question why the ACO? I do think that moaning about the ACF process on an ATC linked board is pretty pointless, you may not have noticed but none of us are ACF?
I can see why the Sea cadets or why the ACF but struggle with the ATC angle for you, apart from you perhaps thinking it is a faster route to what you have obviously set your heart on- a Commission.
I am an ATC Squadron Commander- Shortly moving to Wing staff to cover Staff recruitment and development, an Ex Air Cadet and Qualified Commercial Pilot.
Yes, a commission does end. If you have less than 10 years service then you must resign your commission. If you have more than 10 years service you retain your commission but retire from the service (TA Regs 1978). You really do need to get your facts right!
Whilst I appreciate the condescending manner in which you tried to make your point, you are again wrong as there are at least two other people on ACC (that I know of) who are ACF (and one of them has even posted on this thread)!!!
When I originally applied to ACO I was working in a role where I was able to give cadets unique opportunities to access civilian aircraft and airports (and was even able to get my hands on a wingless Piper Tomahawk (non working and never would), however, the ACO refused it). In addition I was doing my PPL (which before you ask, I stopped as I couldn’t afford to continue and only gained 21 hours). I believed that the opportunities I could offer the cadets was of benefit to the organisation and that, my PPL knowledge would also be of some advantage. Once again, before you come up with your own assumptions, you need to ask the question. E.g. the question you might have asked could have been “Why did you want to join the Air Cadets?”. If, as an officer or indeed in my civilian career i’d have been as quick to make assumptions as you have, I wouldn’t have made it as far as you seemingly have.
I honestly can’t understand why you would be put in charge of staff recruitment and development. Your posts show someone who is dismissive of someone looking to join the organisation let alone someone who aspires to develop within the organisation. I certainly hope if I decide to move to the ACO that you’re not the Wing officer interviewing me. I can already see how it’ll go…it’ll be a case of you looking at me, making some assumptions, telling me i’m being dishonest and then telling me you don’t want me.
All of the descriptions of barriers, process and steps to be a member of staff in a youth organisation do seem a trifle confusing.
The CFs seem to want to attract ex-members of the regular and reserves of all persuasions to their organisations and for reasons known best to themselves from what I’ve seen on this thread want to make it difficult.
If you’ve been commissioned or an NCO in the regulars/reserves, surely (unless you completely MESSED it up) then coming into the CF at that level, shouldn’t be a problem and while not rubber-stamped, it should be a quicker process. What has been described for the ACF, if I have understood it correctly, seems OTT. You’d be mightily [ANNOYED[/b] if the CF binned you for a similarly ranked position. Yes I know that these are minors and not adults, but if as an adult and potentially parent, you weren’t aware of the need to deal with things differently, then you shouldn’t be looking to join the CF.
There are differences in approach, with respect to training and between the adult services and cadet organisations, but fundamentally instructing the basics are intrinsically the same. A quick read of the cadet training manuals to ascertain the depth required to get the basics across (individually people will look to pass more on) and I would suggest the only difference may be attention span, but if people are parents they should be more than aware of what their kids are like.
Bully,
I am not making assumptions I am asking questions and trying to discover what is your real reason for trying to move to the ACO from the ACF.
When your background is thoroughly checked you may be able to re commission. I think you are better suited to the ACF though with all the TA Commissioned service- you must have a wealth of qualifications that are easily transferred or re obtained after a short “Cadet” course, perhaps you could move counties perhaps?
BTW you’re the one that mentioned dishonesty not me, I merely questioned your motives for joining the ACO and requiring a commission from the outset having been kicked back by the ACF. I did so in a direct and honest way.
Hope you repost here next year and tell us how great it is in the ACF/ACO! and as long as the cadets get a great time who cares what rank anyone is hey?
Thanks for the kind words BTW, nice to be appreciated ;>)
Have to agree with your point asqncdr - why do you need a rank to give the cadets a great experience?
Far too many people care about the uniform and not the real motivator - giving young people good start in life!
Sometimes not being in uniform is awkward when you take them on trips etc but my cadets always have a great time and they appreciate the staff irrespective of rank.
You have made massive posts about being officer material and the time it takes etc, why not just be part of the cadet experience and contribute positivey regardless of rank?
Wish you luck whatever you decide but uniform and rank don’t nessecarily make for good staff.
[quote=“asqncdr” post=7144]
…
I think you are not being entirely honest.[/quote]
Asqncdr…it was in fact you that mentioned dishonesty!!!
There are no ‘short’ ACF courses. Your previous qualifications appear to mean nothing. I joined with someone with range qualifications galore, In fact, he possessed DCCT qualification, when mentioned to the DS on our BIC, they said that they didn’t think anyone in our County possessed it. Result - County and Brigade told him that his previous qualifications were not recognised and that once he held rank he could attend the full courses again.
We had a Pirbright trained Drill Instructor. He had to be taught how to do left/right and about turns, halt, marching, saluting to the front/left and right. Apparently, he will have to attend a Drill Instructors course as his previous one counts for nothing!
Two qualified First Aid Instructors on our course who were told they are not allowed to teach First Aid.
It just goes on and on and on.
aerobat and asqncdr
I have previously said that I couldn’t care less about uniform (equally I couldn’t really care about rank for that matter). However, my point is that I can’t utilise my skills until I gain the rank so the rank has been made important by the organisation.
The pirbright trained DI wont have his qualifications recognized in the ATC because he is a Army Drill Instructor and it is army drill not AP818 (RAF Drill + Ceremonial)
He would need to complete the Senior Non-Commisioned Staff Drill Instructors Course (SSDIC). Obviously his drill instruction skills would be noticed because he is an Army DI and it would most probably be easy for him to pass. But before he does do SSDIC I think it would be a good idea to read through AP818 and learn the drill because it wouldn’t look good if he turn’t up at the course and started to do Army Drill.
Thats why his skills wouldn’t be noticed is because of his drill knowledge on AP818. (i think im right)
A chap who had instructed on and fired nigh on everything the Army had to offer, spoke to a neighbouring sqn cdr about joining. When they enquired about his experience and transfer of qualifications, he was told he would have to go on RCO and the WI course as was. He decided not to bother and man with considerable knowledge and experience, lost because of what is in effect pettiness.
As for First Aid they’d need to roll up a trouser leg and learn the St John funny handshake. I know a bloke through work who has been teaching and assessing First Aid licensed by the HSA for the last 8 years. Apparently he would need a SJA instructor ticket or something to be able to teach/assess cadets. He teaches and assesses everything from Emergency First Aid, FAW, defib add ons etc etc, with a non SJA training company.
Again all this highlights is the detached and protectionist nature of areas of the cadet forces, yet they on the surface seem to want people with skills and qualifications to join as staff.
The pirbright trained DI wont have his qualifications recognized in the ATC because he is a Army Drill Instructor and it is army drill not AP818 (RAF Drill + Ceremonial)
He would need to complete the Senior Non-Commisioned Staff Drill Instructors Course (SSDIC). Obviously his drill instruction skills would be noticed because he is an Army DI and it would most probably be easy for him to pass. But before he does do SSDIC I think it would be a good idea to read through AP818 and learn the drill because it wouldn’t look good if he turn’t up at the course and started to do Army Drill.
Thats why his skills wouldn’t be noticed is because of his drill knowledge on AP818. (i think im right)
Thanks
Woody[/quote]
Its not just the Army I was a DI at Halton for 2 years and the ATC wont recognize my ‘Q’
The ex-Pirbright Instructor was annoyed. I don’t think he is considering ATC but, I don’t think he would have expected his qualification to be recognised in the ATC due to the differences in drill.
Why would the ATC not recognise the qualification? It makes no sense. In these times of austerity surely saving money would be of benefit by not having to send you another one. (Although, as i’m not an officer I can’t think about budgets, training of staff or recruitment of staff!)
GHE2
Your weapons guy sounds very much like my guys. I found out that my County has lost 2 more Instructors during the last week. Both ex-military and both had taught on cadet units as service helpers! Both have left during training, the feedback being that they were being taught to suck eggs and none of their military quals were being accepted.
Re the weapons, most formal qualifications (specifically RCO quals like SA(B)90) are directly transferrable subject to the “break in service” being fairly short (2 years I think).
As with everything… a little common sense goes a long way.
I really dislike all the “if you want a commission you’re just in it for yourself” malarky.
Since when did it become a crime to aspire to a commission?
Not everyone sees themselves as a drill pig, and having to go that way before commissioning is not for everyone.
Some people’s skills ARE best utilised in an officer role, some in an NCO role, some are best in general instructor (i.e. CI) role.
I hear what you are saying Im SNCO ATC and im happy doing that I dont want to be an officer but people think that im only SNCO because I failed selection when I have never even gone for it!!
I was a SNCO while in the RAF and im happy to just be one now I never wanted to be an officer and never will being a SNCO is better sutied to my skill set. To many guys think that SNCO is a place for failed officers.
Out of the 10 of us on my BIC only 3 of us were interested in going for a commission. The rest had no interest and believed they would be of more use to the cadets as a SNCO.
I have noticed on this thread and also at ARRSE and E-GOAT that if you aspire to commission in the cadets you are looked at as some sort of walt. I encourage my cadets to be the best they can be and to aspire for their star levels and promotion. On the flip side, on this thread, ARRSE and E-GOAT, the opposite appears to be true for adult staff who aspire!
As has also been mentioned, I heard numerous whispers in ATC and ACF about people who are SNCO’s as they failed officer selection. What a load of rubbish. I used to work with a guy who was an adult warrant officer in the ATC. He had been approached for, but was not interested in, becoming an officer. Why? Because he loved what he was doing and wasn’t interested in changing it. Like I have said throughout this thread - if an adult joins and wants to use their existing skills we should look to utilise them (if suitable). If that is as an officer or SNCO then we should offer them as much support as possible. If someone joins and wants a change (and they are suitable) then we should encourage them.
Maybe a new motto should be introduced for those who are in charge of adult staff in the cadet forces:
