Adult training and CFAV streaming

Bully,
The ACO has very similar assessments for Officer and a similar process carried out at OASC Cranwell.
The ACO is short of people in some areas and with a glut in others- but no where near as bad as the ACF. I find it hard to believe that staff with that much experience are not fast tracked, unless they of course spent 30 years as a Chef of left as a 20 Year Lance Corporal and had no Relevant instructor qualifications, not everyone in Regular or reserve forces is an instructor, everyone in the ACF is.
Maybe the ACF needs a cultural change to the ACO Mindset in some form- it’s not perfect but we do get Young Officers to behave like young officers and have in most parts of the country younger staff than the ACF, although that is generalising a bit. The ACF does have very good CPD which the ACO is lacking, and first class support from the CTT’s, which we do not have.
The other thing to remember is that The Air takes priority in the ACO meaning that some activities are not carried out the same way as the ACF, and there is more reliance on AT and Technical classroom instruction. A different beast.
You do appear to be the sort of person who would complain about any entry system that did not suit you, I can’t see what value you might have over someone who had developed as an Instructor and reached their full potential coming on from no direct experience. In our organisation you might get a commission faster but then you might be found lacking faster.

Why don’t we recruit people into roles which best utilise their existing skills (where that individual wants to use those skills)? I’m not saying you shouldn’t develop their APC knowledge or ATC equivalent.

We do, but its our choice not yours whether you are of use.

Why do we make people wait 2 years in the ACF to get stripes and 4 years to get a commission?

Because you need to be trained and developed

Why do the ACO make people wait 12 months to get a uniform?

Because it allows a longer period to check suitability and to weed out kiddie fiddlers, and to develop people, Most walk ins don’t want to go into uniform until they are ready. If you are a Cadet Warrant officer you may apply before your 20th Birthday, select and be commissioned the day after you turn 20. If you are an ex cadet but not a Warrant you can apply direct for Sgt at 20. If you are ex Regular you can enter in the Rank you left at after your CI probationary period. If you have previously held a commission you can re commission. In both those cases it is after a shortened interview process. The ACO really can’t be any fairer. The ACF system is theirs and attempts to create a level playing feild.
And finally, what do they hope to achieve by doing this?!
It stops the mad and unsuitable getting in, and should with the ACF model develop a common standard. With the ACO we have been bitten badly with oddballs.

Not saying you fit that bill you understand- to better understand research past incidents with the Uniformed youth organisations…

[quote=“asqncdr” post=7107]People taken on for full time posts you describe have a few more background and suitability checks than we do at the outset. Are you claiming that your Wing has never had a CI recruited who turns out to substantially less than he appeared to be on first contact? This is part of the reason the formal interview has been introduced for CI’s. Non of the above look after peoples children do they (with minimal training)

In reality it takes around 10 months to get all the paperwork and clearances sorted out, once that is sorted it is onwards to Boards, bear in mind we are talking about people with no military experience, and no prior knowledge of the Corps, just what possible use would they be with no development? Only a few are ready to go forwards given the absolute lack of Personal development on offer.

And having a shortage of staff is not the driver for making the process easier, nor is not getting rid of people for the same reason![/quote]

Yes. SJA teach their own cadets and adults would have unrestricted access to cadets quite early on. The most you would expect would be a DBS check. Both Red Cross and SJA would have access to vulnerable children when providing First Aid, potentially without a parent present. Again, they would only have had an initial interview and a DBS check.

Special Constables would again be given access to vulnerable adults and children with minimal training (12 days). Yes they would have had a security check but even then they would have been in the organisation for around 6 weeks.

I’m not saying that any cadet force should take people on without appropriate checks but equally, if they can’t be trusted with a uniform at 3 months because they might be a kiddy fiddler, what changed over the following 9 months other than a DBS check which only says if they were ever caught?

An enhanced DBS check normally takes around 4 weeks. Security clearance takes around 8 weeks for DV (which cadets don’t get so CTC/SC should take around 6 weeks if the applicant has filled the forms in properly). I appreciate that the ACO paperwork may take some time but 10 months is a hell of a long time to get a payroll/service number!

[quote=“asqncdr” post=7108]Bully,
The ACO has very similar assessments for Officer and a similar process carried out at OASC Cranwell.
The ACO is short of people in some areas and with a glut in others- but no where near as bad as the ACF. I find it hard to believe that staff with that much experience are not fast tracked, unless they of course spent 30 years as a Chef of left as a 20 Year Lance Corporal and had no Relevant instructor qualifications, not everyone in Regular or reserve forces is an instructor, everyone in the ACF is.
Maybe the ACF needs a cultural change to the ACO Mindset in some form- it’s not perfect but we do get Young Officers to behave like young officers and have in most parts of the country younger staff than the ACF, although that is generalising a bit. The ACF does have very good CPD which the ACO is lacking, and first class support from the CTT’s, which we do not have.
The other thing to remember is that The Air takes priority in the ACO meaning that some activities are not carried out the same way as the ACF, and there is more reliance on AT and Technical classroom instruction. A different beast.
You do appear to be the sort of person who would complain about any entry system that did not suit you, I can’t see what value you might have over someone who had developed as an Instructor and reached their full potential coming on from no direct experience. In our organisation you might get a commission faster but then you might be found lacking faster.[/quote]

The first ex-military person I referred to with nearly 30 years service was a qualified instructor in a number of disciplines and had been a Staff Sergeant prior to leaving the army. I’ve seen his qualification records from the army which proved he wasn’t lying. In addition, he had been trusted to teach cadets as a service helper for a few years but upon applying to the ACF he apparently lost his trust and skills.

The second had made full screw but stopped there. He had no instructor qualifications but had also been entrusted with teaching cadets as a service helper whilst in the army.

You do not know me, my background, my qualifications or my abilities and for that reason I understand why you can’t see the value. However, the Major who interviewed me saw the value but failed to mention that there would be such a long wait.

[quote=“asqncdr” post=7109]Why don’t we recruit people into roles which best utilise their existing skills (where that individual wants to use those skills)? I’m not saying you shouldn’t develop their APC knowledge or ATC equivalent.

We do, but its our choice not yours whether you are of use.

Why do we make people wait 2 years in the ACF to get stripes and 4 years to get a commission?

Because you need to be trained and developed

Why do the ACO make people wait 12 months to get a uniform?

Because it allows a longer period to check suitability and to weed out kiddie fiddlers, and to develop people, Most walk ins don’t want to go into uniform until they are ready. If you are a Cadet Warrant officer you may apply before your 20th Birthday, select and be commissioned the day after you turn 20. If you are an ex cadet but not a Warrant you can apply direct for Sgt at 20. If you are ex Regular you can enter in the Rank you left at after your CI probationary period. If you have previously held a commission you can re commission. In both those cases it is after a shortened interview process. The ACO really can’t be any fairer. The ACF system is theirs and attempts to create a level playing feild.
And finally, what do they hope to achieve by doing this?!
It stops the mad and unsuitable getting in, and should with the ACF model develop a common standard. With the ACO we have been bitten badly with oddballs.

Not saying you fit that bill you understand- to better understand research past incidents with the Uniformed youth organisations…[/quote]

I appreciate that it is the cadet forces choice whether I or any other volunteer is of use. However, there appears to be no use of peoples skills, just a case of ‘everyone starts the same and if you don’t like it get lost’. Is it any wonder those 2 ex-regs I mentioned did what they said and walked?

I agree that people need to be trained and developed but that’s not the point I was making. Why can’t potential officers be taken on as such and provided with the appropriate training in line with their future role after attending and passing CFCB. If they fail, then they either go down the NCO route or get lost. If they passed and it takes a year to get your 2LT then it takes a year, but at least you are working towards it.

I need not research the previous incidents of uniformed youth organisations. I am fully aware of what has happened and I fully appreciate the need to prevent oddballs. But, 12 months is still a long time to monitor a potential oddball. The facades and lies of people will usually show early on - granted not straight away but they slip within a few months.

As I said I can understand why the ACF have their processes but am glad we have ours which are on the whole more grown up. We do try to identify potential Officers and guide them that way and do not see SNCO as a right of passage to the Officers mess in the way that the ACF do. It is probably the main reason our Officers behave as such and most ACF ones perform rather like SNCO’s possibly! But if I were to recommend a CI for a Uniformed post I would first like to monitor their attendance to make sure they walked the walk and also make sure they actually had something to offer and would be a productive member of staff, more so for Officers where the yard stick is would they command a Unit? You would be surprised at how many people think it is their right to wear a uniform and it is not, this Major that you give a lot of importance to may have thought after interview that you had potential but your other commanders might think you need to slow down and learn some stuff first. I can’t second guess the ACF internal working mind.

We would have probably taken both chaps in, the SSGT at FS level almost certainly and mapped his quals to Cadet quals- with short conversions if a SAAI. The Cpl chap would not jump a rank probably given no instructor quals but would be welcomed with open arms. But you do have to balance this with the fact that it is the ACO and it does have different requirements.

What does concern me is that at no point in this whole discussion have you mentioned the cadets? You appear to have different motivators that are purely selfish- which is why you are impatient to run before you can walk. Perhaps the ACF don’t think you are ready yet and perhaps the ACO in theguise of your unit commander might come to the same conclusion.

Volunteers get involved for very complex motivators but some do it for the dressing up playing soldiers/airmen/sailors and those tend to be the ones pushing to move on before they are ready. ,

Why not relax- enjoy working with the Army cadets as you must have some motivator to have got involved and see what it throws up- it is not a career it’s a hobby and can be quite good fun if you disengage yourself from this pretend career element.

One of the most respected, best motivated and qualified CFAV I know is a SNCO, Officers listen to him because he is very very good- when it was suggested to him that he might like to apply for a commission he asked why on earth he would need to do that, he already commanded a Unit and had no ambition beyond that. Commanding a Unit is the best thing in the Cadet forces and everything after that has no attraction to most people in the ACO, perhaps that’s the main difference?

Equally our army of CI’s is what keeps the ACO moving- absolute freedom to take part when you want and do the fun bits- I fully intend to be one again very soon and actually can’t wait!!:>)

[quote=“Red Bull Gives You Wings” post=7110]
An enhanced DBS check normally takes around 4 weeks. Security clearance takes around 8 weeks for DV (which cadets don’t get so CTC/SC should take around 6 weeks if the applicant has filled the forms in properly). I appreciate that the ACO paperwork may take some time but 10 months is a hell of a long time to get a payroll/service number![/quote]

That is the big question- you fail to factor in the Volunteer factor, lost paperwork, not sending the forms in properly etc and the wait for Someone at Cranwell to move a file across a desk!

That pile is quite big given and there are a few different systems that need data entering but people are working hard to cut the time down.

It would appear the question that needs to be addressed is ; why both the ACF and ACO have overtly long and convoluted processes, in comparison to schools and local authorities? I wouldn’t have thought their concerns regarding the ‘suitability’ of staff is any less than ours, wrt CP.
A chap in the village does part-time work as a youth worker and after 2 weeks to get a CRB and day course about CP and safeguarding, was working with kids on a vulnerability scale we would recoil at. My cousin’s husband works in a school doing home visits to and working with kids and families with problems. Again CRB prior to starting and a week for CP and safeguarding training and meetings to familiarise with the families, before he was let loose. Prior to being made redundant he was a factory operator and helped out with his sons’ football team and cub group, so not what you would have called massively experienced. Both of these have access to the respective databases of children, and my cousin’s husband (like all staff) has a school I pad which he can get the school database on and update as necessary.
Yet the ACO as I know this best, 2 months if Wing and HQAC get their finger out for a CRB and minimum 6 months (if again people get their finger out) and multiple interviews before appt as a CI. This is aside from the covoluted and complex process we now have for commissioning in the ACO which seems to have taken a slight lead from the ACF. The process for keeping cadets beyond 18 is unnecessarily complex. We seem to make things convoluted and complex for the sole purpose of making things convoluted and complex.
I cannot see that admin staff in schools and LAs are any less busy than the staff at the various HQs around the country. Maybe in the reviews that seem to happen regularly our esteemed leaders should look into what is deemed as best practice in schools and LAs.

Maybe the answer is to give people honarary appointments instead of Commissions is actually the answer?

I think wee have it about right, once the DBS one time registration is sorted and when WHQ can enter CI data and issue a staff number (coming soon apparently) then it should speed up, the quickest I have seen recently is 7 weeks which was impressive expect when you strip that back and find out it was all done paperwork and clearance wise after 4 weeks!
Our entry level is CI, the ACF is SI, everyone who joins the ACF joins to go into Uniform, not everyone who joins the ATC wants to. Different strokes…

I look forward to the single DBS registration though- it seems mad to run multiple checks on people already working with Children.

Keeping cadets beyond 18 requires a DBS check and one piece of paper- how un cluttered can that be? The only alternative might be to end cadet service at 18. I recently lost what I though was a good cadet NCO on DBS check as he apparently was the leader of a Gang with a few violent convictions…I had no idea, the cadets all knew mind!

I think if they get the electronic registration for DBS sorted, and then get most of the application paperwork on line, not just for downloading and sending in but for submission, then once references are taken and the applicant has been interviewed it is full steam ahead.

It is worth remembering that some of these control measures come from outside independent enquiry reports following major incidents and also from the RAF Risk register outcomes. If we were to distance ourselves completely from the RAF in much the same way as the Sea Cadets then a bit more flexibility might come in.

I would be interested to find out what the SCC take on this is?

[quote=“asqncdr” post=7114]As I said I can understand why the ACF have their processes but am glad we have ours which are on the whole more grown up. We do try to identify potential Officers and guide them that way and do not see SNCO as a right of passage to the Officers mess in the way that the ACF do. It is probably the main reason our Officers behave as such and most ACF ones perform rather like SNCO’s possibly! But if I were to recommend a CI for a Uniformed post I would first like to monitor their attendance to make sure they walked the walk and also make sure they actually had something to offer and would be a productive member of staff, more so for Officers where the yard stick is would they command a Unit? You would be surprised at how many people think it is their right to wear a uniform and it is not, this Major that you give a lot of importance to may have thought after interview that you had potential but your other commanders might think you need to slow down and learn some stuff first. I can’t second guess the ACF internal working mind.

We would have probably taken both chaps in, the SSGT at FS level almost certainly and mapped his quals to Cadet quals- with short conversions if a SAAI. The Cpl chap would not jump a rank probably given no instructor quals but would be welcomed with open arms. But you do have to balance this with the fact that it is the ACO and it does have different requirements.

What does concern me is that at no point in this whole discussion have you mentioned the cadets? You appear to have different motivators that are purely selfish- which is why you are impatient to run before you can walk. Perhaps the ACF don’t think you are ready yet and perhaps the ACO in theguise of your unit commander might come to the same conclusion.

Volunteers get involved for very complex motivators but some do it for the dressing up playing soldiers/airmen/sailors and those tend to be the ones pushing to move on before they are ready. ,

Why not relax- enjoy working with the Army cadets as you must have some motivator to have got involved and see what it throws up- it is not a career it’s a hobby and can be quite good fun if you disengage yourself from this pretend career element.

One of the most respected, best motivated and qualified CFAV I know is a SNCO, Officers listen to him because he is very very good- when it was suggested to him that he might like to apply for a commission he asked why on earth he would need to do that, he already commanded a Unit and had no ambition beyond that. Commanding a Unit is the best thing in the Cadet forces and everything after that has no attraction to most people in the ACO, perhaps that’s the main difference?

Equally our army of CI’s is what keeps the ACO moving- absolute freedom to take part when you want and do the fun bits- I fully intend to be one again very soon and actually can’t wait!!:>)[/quote]

Your first paragraph was the point I was trying to make. Why MUST you become a SNCO in the ACF first? Some people join and want to run their own detachment for whatever reason (business management skills, ex-regular platoon commander, or just mad). Some do not want to be SNCO’s at all (maybe ex-regular or TA officer with a long break in service). Some join and want nothing to do with running a detachment and never want to be an officer. Where someone wants to become an officer we should be going the through the process I mentioned earlier to assess their suitability. If they’re suitable we should be setting them up to develop officer skills (much like it sounds the ACO may do). We will undoubtedly shut the door in the face of people who may have been great volunteers.

As for the Major I apply a great deal of importance to - then you’re right I do. He is a senior officer in my counties ACF HQ. It is his job to assess candidates for their suitability. Not only that but I also have the support of my DC and my Company OC to go for my commission. It is not that anyone thinks I need to take a step back and slow down. In fact, my DC and OC are trying to push me forward but are prevented by a system designed to be slow. One of the other potential officers from my intake is also facing the same problem despite being pushed forward by his OC and DC.

I will let the S/Sgt know how the ACO will view him. I am sure the ACO will have a new recruit in the next couple of weeks. Although he wants to use his leadership skills and go for a commission. I might direct him to this thread to see what he thinks.

The other applicant has moved to another country now so he has been lost forever!

I think you will find that during this conversation I have mentioned the cadets. In fact, my whole point was that the cadets would best benefit from my skills if I were in a role to utilise them. I didn’t say I wanted to join so I can play dress up (over the years I have worn many uniforms so a uniform is of no importance to me. If I could use my skills in a non-uniformed post, i’d be more than happy to do so. Unfortunately, that isn’t an option.) You are, however, right. I have met and worked with both ACF and ATC staff who want to do exactly that. There are some who think they are training Phase 1 recruits and treat their cadets accordingly. There are some who go drinking in their uniforms (no idea why).

You appear to have made a decision on me and attempted to veil your assumptions about me through your sweeping generalisations. I will again reiterate that you do not know me, my background, my skills or my qualifications. Yet you have been overtly pessimistic towards my development both within the ACF or indeed the ACO.

Do schools and local authorities just put people into jobs and roles working with minors without taking proper steps? I’ve heard that a school CRB is done within a working week, from completion of details to certificate in your grubby mitt and get on with it. Why do we need, as I have heard at least 3 times that long for someone at HQAC to complete other checks? I got my last ACO CRB clearance through the post after a month or so and then another 6 weeks before HQAC said I was OK. I got a WHQ whinge as I updated my clearance as soon as I got it, like I do all staff, rather than fanny around waiting for HQAC.

We should be taking our lead from schools and local authorities for best practice, NOT the MoD as, intrinsically what we do as youth leaders is more akin to what happens in parts of the LA and schools day to day. I would say that what we do need is better CP and safeguarding training, which is what it seems schools and LAs concentrate on. The BASIC says nothing IMO.

As for your NCO I would say that’s someone somewhere over reacting. They must have been working with young offender workers at some point if they had been convicted, several times. Unless your cadets are mute and staff deaf, I can’t believe no one was aware. I’ve known more or less straight away when I’ve had cadets involved in things, which has police involvement as the jungle drums bang away. But in the modern world, the sort of thing that I and my mates did which got you shouted at, now get the police in some or other guise.

All they should do is a CRB and BASIC if they want to stay in. It is the fact that I have to do another piece of paper, that didn’t exist before, effectively seeking permission for a cadet who is already in the Corps to stay in the Corps. When it came in and I told the staff, the only response was why, not oh that’s I damn good I idea. We don’t do that with staff. CAC says they want to reduce the admin burden, but invent MORE admin. I’ve now been told recently that they have to have a WSO interview as well, all they are doing is staying in the Corps.
I think we have people (it seems in the ACO as well) looking after their jobs and creating roles superfluous to requirments, to make people thing that they are necessary. But should I be surprised, as is this not the raison d’etre of administrators.

I agree entirely with you about the over 18 process which is a salve to keep over 18 cadets as we are the only Military cadet force to retain cadets when they are in fact adults. I don’t think this state of affairs is sustainable for much longer given the move towards a common set of T&C’S and rules. I am told the permission to remain for over 18’s is set at Wing Cdr to stop Sqn cdrs from enlisting cadets over 18.

You seem to argue hard for us to disengage from the MOD/RAF in this matter, I agree, I think at local level you could move this entire process along faster. But for reputation management the RAF would not allow it.

Bully,
Indeed I do not know you or your skills, for example you might be a highly experienced Youth leader from another organisation or Ex regular or TA, or you might just be a walk in from the street who thinks he can jump the system as he is so brilliant. All In know is if you were that good you might have researched the time lines it would take you in the ACF and then decided if it was for you or not, and perhaps joined the Scouts…which is a lot quicker if you want to work with kids.
I think the ACF system has evolved the way it has due to circumstances and the people it get in the door- and your county might be designing it’s own entry rules, everyone I have spoken to have said that ex Forces are highly valued in the ACF.
The ACO has it’s way of doing it- it is much more flexible but the bar is set very high and like the ACF you must join from the bottom.

Perhaps if you listed your AT and Youth work quals or Military Quals I could offer targeted advice and not generalise so much.

I did do my research but, as with AFCO’s, I have come to realise you are told what they think you want to hear to get you on board and then once you’re signed up, the goal posts move. Not one of us on our BIC had been told that it was going to take 2 years to get promoted until we got to our BIC.

On my course we had ex-military and ex-cadet warrant officers (we also had other ex-cadets but I can’t remember their ranks). Every one of them is having to go through exactly the same process.

My background:

  1. Ex-sea cadet
  2. Taught cadets for 5 years and was responsible for setting up a unit from the ground which included recruiting and retaining cadets and teaching
  3. Ex-TA officer
  4. Selected for an ATC commission but had to leave due to work prior to gaining it. That was 2 years ago and I know things change (by Wing, Region or even just over time). I had served in excess of what for me at that time was a 3 month probation.
  5. 7 months ACF experience.

Whilst everyone you have spoken to in the ACF says that ex-forces are highly valued it is not the case across the board. Whilst the ACF love ex-military, they are treated like a walk in off the street and only in exceptional circumstances receive rank relative to that they previously held.

If you have previously held a commission in the Regular/reserve forces you can be appointed direct as an Officer in your previous rank, I know loads of people who have done this in the ACF.

Likewise in the ACO.

I think you are not being entirely honest.

No idea why i’m justifying myself to you. BUT I was told at my initial interview that if I had left the TA in the 5 years prior to my application to ACF my previous commission would be recognised. This would have been subject to the Transfer Board agreeing. I had actually left the TA almost 7 years prior to joining the ACF so was told I had to join as an AI and then go through the system. I wasn’t told that it was going to take forever and a day.

As I said, I had been selected for my commission in the ATC but had to leave due to work.

Once again, you are jumping to conclusions. You seem very quick to doubt my authenticity and make a decision without looking at the facts first.

What’s your background and current role that permits you to judge me and offer what could be incorrect and intentionally inflammatory advice?

[quote=“Red Bull Gives You Wings” post=7140]
Whilst everyone you have spoken to in the ACF says that ex-forces are highly valued it is not the case across the board. Whilst the ACF love ex-military, they are treated like a walk in off the street and only in exceptional circumstances receive rank relative to that they previously held.[/quote]

To be fair to the ACF, being a CFAV isn’t the same thing as being a soldier. Someone could have been an awesome super trooper with all the rank and quals from 22 years service, but an utterly useless youth worker. I know, I’ve met that man more than once.

The sooner we end cadet service at 18 the better, with some adjustment at the other end of the age scale.

We do seem to over egg the pudding when it comes to staff applications, whereas schools and LAs, on the face of it, have a much more pragmatic approach and speedier system, that MUST tick the necessary boxes.
As for reputation, I doubt that schools or LAs want to risk their’s anymore than the RAF might and I might suggest the former less so, given the greater number of children that they deal with compared to the RAF.
You can’t do it any quicker locally, as you are reliant on people out of your control to get their fingers out.

[quote=“tango_lima” post=7146][quote=“Red Bull Gives You Wings” post=7140]
Whilst everyone you have spoken to in the ACF says that ex-forces are highly valued it is not the case across the board. Whilst the ACF love ex-military, they are treated like a walk in off the street and only in exceptional circumstances receive rank relative to that they previously held.[/quote]

To be fair to the ACF, being a CFAV isn’t the same thing as being a soldier. Someone could have been an awesome super trooper with all the rank and quals from 22 years service, but an utterly useless youth worker. I know, I’ve met that man more than once.[/quote]

Couldn’t agree more.

I have worked with an ex-reg who thought it appropriate to show inappropriate images to the cadets, give them a clout on the back of the head and found himself unable to stop himself from swearing (causing offence to another adult). A quick conversation with my DC resolved it!

I am not saying that you should walk in the door with rank based on previous military service either. What I am saying is where a persons skills are identified as being of use in a particular role then we should not place 4 years of hurdles in the way.

Equally, we could have an ex-reg who knows the syllabus exceptionally well but lacks instructional ability. Should we not just teach them how to teach and then promote them to Sgt accordingly rather than expecting that person to attend 2 years of courses where they are taught to suck eggs except on instructional abilities? As an added benefit, surely this would have a cost saving by not having to pay for an adult to go on 2 years worth of courses when he/she may only need 2 days to cover CP, History/Structure of ACF and other training that only relates to the cadets.

[quote=“Red Bull Gives You Wings” post=7149]
Equally, we could have an ex-reg who knows the syllabus exceptionally well but lacks instructional ability. Should we not just teach them how to teach and then promote them to Sgt accordingly rather than expecting that person to attend 2 years of courses where they are taught to suck eggs except on instructional abilities? As an added benefit, surely this would have a cost saving by not having to pay for an adult to go on 2 years worth of courses when he/she may only need 2 days to cover CP, History/Structure of ACF and other training that only relates to the cadets.[/quote]

I suppose that the problem there is that the stuff cadets learn isn’t the same as the armed forces. Fieldcraft, comms, shooting… it all looks similar at first glance, but when you get into it there are some pretty massive differences.

It could easily become a case of ‘a little bit of knowledge…’

[quote=“tango_lima” post=7161]

It could easily become a case of ‘a little bit of knowledge…’[/quote]

How ironic!!!