Rear Admiral Scrinson - You have to understand there are some people on this forum who only see life through the rose coloured spectacles of the ACO. I have been criticised so often on this forum for my comments by people who really have no idea what life is like in the real military. They have no idea how difficult it is to get kit and equipment and clearly no idea of what hang ups there can be in logistical and administrative chains.
Criticism from those types is de rigour. Indeed, I reckon something will head this way following this submission. Lol.
Frankly, I believe the whole MTP aspect is all vanity and regardless if it’s issued, bought, given, stolen; whatever, there are far better things to spend money, in general, on.
RS, I’m no great defender of the ACO in general and their - quite often imposed - double standards but with regard to MTP, I can’t actually see why ‘vanity’ comes into it. I completely concur that CS95 would be the best route for the ACO to go down and yes, there may be a fair bit that can be obtained at present for some Wings but then what? What happens when there IS no more CS95 to be had and MTP is the ONLY uniform available?
All that’s happening is that that day has come sooner rather than later.
Yes, kids like having the latest thing available and yes, MTP to them (and some staff) is Gucci and looks ally. Kids are kids. Some Sqns in my area don’t even have, nor can obtain, sufficient stocks of CS95 to kit out their kids so is it such a huge surprise that some units are going down the road of purchasing MTP?
Not really.
When you mention that some people in the ACO have no idea of the issues surrounding getting the kit you need to do the job, I for one know only too well what you mean but again, if Sqns are able to spend money to give their kids something that the ACO refuses to, then why the uproar?
Back in Feb 2003, I (and others) were posted to Incirlik prior to the invasion. We were entitled to cold-weather clothing and desert kit for subsequent phases of the Op. Upon presenting our chits to the suppliers, we were told there was nothing we could have. When we asked why, we were told all the senior officers, aircrew and movers had demanded kit and got it. This left nothing for anyone else. The supply chain had effectively broken down.
What did I come away with? A spare water bottle. What did we do? We whinged like b*stards [I]up[/I] the CoC but we knew there was nothing we could do and nothing would make things change. We didn’t go whinging at the local ATC unit because they had bits and pieces that we couldn’t be issued. We had to deal with it and crack on. Fortunately, the posting was cancelled and we went elsewhere but still clad in temperate kit until the right kit became available for issue.
I know where you’re coming from but lets not inflate the situation by comparing it to what you, I and others have experienced in previous lives. MTP is available by purchase and if people want to spend their hard-earned or Sqn funds on it, then its really up to them. At the end of the day, its a functional item. Something that’s a tool to do a job, in the ACO’s case, to turn up looking as smart as possible (well, as smart as MTP allows one to be!) and to carry out tasks during fieldcraft training and range practices.
As I’ve said, one day CS95 [I]will[/I] run out and MTP will become the norm and like us back in 03, the regular and reserve forces need to get their heads round it. Sooner rather than later.
Finally, we both know that the logistical issues lie with MOD, not the ACO. People like Scrinson should be complaning to their chain of command, not coming on here and whining at CFAV’s and cadets just because it is made available for them to purchase.
Just a thought Scrinson, have you been over to ARRSE whining about why the ACF get issued, yes, ISSUED, FREE, the very uniform you say you’re not getting?
Surely, it must be worth a moan to them.
And oh, I gave up playing with pebbles when I was promoted to SAC. I then started playing with rocks.
I think you may have missed my point.
I am not whinging at the ACO for the MOD failings. Merely pointing out a few amusing situations.
And you are right the ACF shouldn’t be issued but that’s not for this forum.
I have made my opinions clear. Some people have seen my points, others have not.
We will never solve this, I just wanted to voice my opinion after lurking for some considerable time.
We have digressed off the thread topic.
I feel strongly that this Sqn could have better spent what was a very large sum of money.
If anyone wishes to continue the debate of MTP PCS. Please feel free to PM me.
Well I have no CS95’s as we dont get issued them but I do have MTP as I was issued it before leaving the RAF now my question is dose it make me a walt that I wear MTP in the ACO? or would you rather I go spend my own money on CS95??
What should we be issued then? We had CS95 while the Army did, so I fail to see why we shouldn’t have MTP PCS while the Army does. It is exactly the same situation.
I guess you would rather see us in battle dress or lightweights? Sorry, but the more you say the more it just sounds to me like a case of sour grapes about the fact that some non soldiers are sporting the same uniform as you.
Bored now!
The question has been raised as to why the ACO had to approve MTP when it did considering there are stocks of DPM in circulation. The reason as far as I see it is because they had no choice but to authorise to for wear because SOME of the ACO staff are scaled for No.3. (SATT, JL etc.) As soon as stores couldn’t equip them with CS95 (because they don’t stock it anymore) then the ACO’s hands were tied.
We’d all be moaning for very different reasons right now if they had decided that some staff could wear PCS and some couldn’t.
Personally, I wear both. I wear DPMs on my unit as we have decided not to transfer over until such point as we can blag enough for everyone. However, when I’m doing wing events I wear my MTP as it’s more comfortable.
Also, those who say that cadets should just take all of the old DPM off of the forces because there are thousands of sets tend to conveniently forget that cadets are not the same size as soldiers.
My unit has enough DPM kit to fit out most of an infantry company, especially if there are plenty of Fijians in it.
How many not-yet issued field jackets in sizes smaller than 190/112 do we have? One.
Get them to go on Op Massive. Problemo solved. No need to thank me gents 
It might take care of the 112 bit, but I can’t see how lifting is going to make them any less 160 tall! 
Torture rack?
[quote=“talon” post=16743][quote=“RearAdmiralScrinson” post=16740]
And you are right the ACF shouldn’t be issued but that’s not for this forum.
[/quote]
What should we be issued then? We had CS95 while the Army did, so I fail to see why we shouldn’t have MTP PCS while the Army does. It is exactly the same situation.
I guess you would rather see us in battle dress or lightweights? Sorry, but the more you say the more it just sounds to me like a case of sour grapes about the fact that some non soldiers are sporting the same uniform as you.[/quote]
Completely missed my point. 1/10 made me reply.
And no, battle dress and light weights is ridiculous.
DPM is just fine for the role of cadets in the ACO.
And I refuse to believe anyone would prefer to wear PCS over DPM for comfort reasons. It’s terrible. I would do anything to have old DPM back, even if it’s in MTP, So would many of my comrades.
And in cases of operating at night time or Jungle environments, DPM is preference.
This a not a case of sour grapes. But a case of practicality and uniformity.
You aren’t allowed to mix DPM and PCS, So what happens when used with Goretex, or are people actually going to pay ridiculous amounts for MTP goretex? Or a DPM daysack?
I won’t say anything more on the matter. Please PM me for any further questions/debate.
Actually, in that specific situation we are - because goretex MTP is tricky to come by we are allowed to wear DPM goretex instead.
Other than that we can’t mix MTP and CS95 uniform on one individual but we can have a mix of indviduals in different uniforms.
I can agree there - CS95 is more comfortable. Well the shirt is. I find PCS trousers more comfortable than CS95 ones. It isn’t uncomfortable enough to make we want to wear DPM CS95 more than MTP PCS though.
[quote=“talon” post=16761][quote=“RearAdmiralScrinson” post=16755]
And I refuse to believe anyone would prefer to wear PCS over DPM for comfort reasons. It’s terrible. I would do anything to have old DPM back, even if it’s in MTP, So would many of my comrades.
[/quote]
I can agree there - CS95 is more comfortable. Well the shirt is. I find PCS trousers more comfortable than CS95 ones. It isn’t uncomfortable enough to make we want to wear DPM CS95 more than MTP PCS though.[/quote]
My disagreement (in part) probably comes from the fact that I rarely wear the Lightweight Jacket. I usually wear the trousers, (which are much nicer) t-shirts and smock. The Smock is almost exactly the same, but has the hand-warmer pockets so in those respects PCS wins hands down.
I fear we’ve jumped away from the OP, so let’s do as RAS wants and OM him with any other thoughts, and leave this thread for discussing the appropriateness of grant spending.
Nah, he started by posturing. He’s not getting off lightly.
PCS is miles ahead of CS95 and I’ve worn both for some time now. So there.
[quote=“Plt Off Prune” post=16790]Nah, he started by posturing. He’s not getting off lightly.
PCS is miles ahead of CS95 and I’ve worn both for some time now. So there.[/quote]
surely it is all a matter of opinion?
i am sure back in the day the predecessor to CS95 was preferred by some
i have heard both good and bad things about…all depends who you are and how you choose to use it in my opinion
Back on page 3 or somewhere some ranted this this was a waste of tax payers money
If spending money on a valid uniform is a waste of ‘taxpayers’ money then we should stop all shooting - thats a waste just pinging lumps of lead at a peice of paper. We should stop flying- 99% of all cadets who fly will never make any use of it.
The ACO/MOD pays 5 times the market value of a gun press ( including fitting) to its contractor- thats £4000 wasted on top of wasting lead & Brass
Dont get me started on RACs…
IT kit lasts a couple of years then its out of date - all you doing is lining Bill Gates pockets and bolstering the economy of China
If you look hard at what we do it is all a waste of taxpayers money - the ACO budget would employ a few nurses and hospital ICU beds
BUT it is great for the Kids (the reason we exist) and if £2k gets them some gucci kit then let them!. Its no different than the Local council buying a new carpet for the CEO 'cos he or she doesn’t like the colour.