Hi everyone,
I’m a bit confused about the type of No1 jacket to be worn by a WO. When looking at AP1358c, at para 0203, my understanding is that a WO can still wear an airman’s jacket, with the eagle shoulder badge removed and wearing the new T&L WO badge. The AP reads that commissioned ranks, RWOs, WWOs and Corps Bandmaster wear the same style of jacket. This suggests to me that ‘normal’ WOs retain the same jacket as they wore as a FS (without the eagle shoulder badge).
Every WO I’ve ever seen has worn an officer pattern no.1 jacket.
I guess @AlexCorbin is your man for this question though.
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Officer pattern is correct.
If I’m really honest I hadn’t seen the remove Eagles part before of dress regs, I had assumed it was just correct pattern. So that would be a question I’d ask through my chain of command for clarity.
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Thanks both for the quick reply. It could save some folks a bit of money.
Will escalate and see what answer I get.
Sorry I couldn’t give you a definitive answer. What you may find depending on the age and service of the jacket the tone under the eagles may be a different colour to the jacket due to fade which probably wouldnt go down too well.
It’s a tricky dress regs vs private purchase argument situation
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I thought WO’s wore the same jacket as officers too…
As did I, but after reading the AP I wondered do they? Its more personal expense for the majority of FS’s to purchase a new jacket for promotion to WO when actually they could keep the FS jacket and rebadge (as long as the rebadging doesn’t damage the jacket).
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I certainley did this when first promoted… I simply couldn’t afford a new set of NO1s at the time.
It took me many years to get a Warrant Officer pattern jacket and trousers.
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In a previous version of AP 1358C It was stipulated that only WWO and above could wear the Officers/WOs pattern No 1. Other WOs were required to wear the Airman pattern with eagle badges removed.
Although the specific requirement has since been removed the wording still carries some of that implication.
Basically it’s currently acceptable for a ‘normal’ WO to wear Airman pattern, but nobody will be complaining if they were to wear Officer/WO pattern - Because they’re a WO.
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This question is answered by the type of insignia worn upon the particular pattern of jacket.
As noted above, individuals appointed to Corps WO positions that entitled them to wear the Royal Arms insignia have always been expected to wear Offrs Pattern No.1 uniform.
Therefore all RAFAC Warrant Officers should now be wearing Offrs pattern of No.1 dress uniform, following the 2020 award of the Royal Arms insignia to all those appointed to a Cadet Forces Warrant.
However: practically-speaking, the current RAF ORs pattern No.1 dress uniform is now made from a cloth which is of a fineness and shade that is very close to the Offrs pattern No.1s…the main difference being the absence of bellows pockets on the frock. Certainly if an individual replacement set of best blues was being obtained, it would be necessary to chose Offrs pattern (but surely a transitional arrangement could be accepted: or even covered by regulation).
As a point of traditional accuracy: although the previous insistance in ATC dress regulations was for AWOs to remove the OR’s shoulder-eagles from any part-worn No.1 dress jackets ranked with their large crown rank insignia, this was actually incorrect based upon the original RAF dress regulations.
When the RAF still had WO2s (in the 1920s/30s) wearing large crown rank, they retained the shoulder eagles on their airmans/ORs-pattern jackets. So although we organisationally thought it looked wrong for our previously-crowned AWOs to wear eagles, strictly-speaking they should have kept them on from FS service.
Incidently…is the Wiki entry about RAFAC Warrant Officers Aircrew correct? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrant_officer_(United_Kingdom)
It states that:
Does this then mean that there is a tribe of RAFAC Warrant Officers (all on VGSs) who will continue to NOT wear the Royal Arms insignia on No.1 dress uniform? But keep their crowns up, surmounted by an aircrew eagle? Or is Wiki wrong in saying that the RAFAC MAcr insignia is restricted only to ex-regulars?
I’m pretty sure all VGS MAcr will now wear the T&L version; I think the Wikipedia entry is from when RAFAC WOs just wore the crown. No sources to back that up, though.
Just an outdated Wiki article if you ask me. Someone has added in one line about Coat of Arms and not bothered to correct the rest of the text.
This issue of Master Aircrew has raised its head previously without a clear answer. There is a lack of clear information in ACPs.
My current understanding is :
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Only CFAV NCO Aircrew (Glider Pilots/ Instructors) wear the CFAV NCO Aircrew style rank slides. Where a NCO is appointed to a VGS in a Ground role they wear standard CFAV Rank Slides.
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The most senior CFAV NCO Aircrew rank is Warrant Officer Aircrew - they now wear this badge :
- The above badge is also worn by CFAV NCO Aircrew who were formally serving as MAcr in the RAF. MAcr is not a RAFAC rank, however they retain that rank in recognition of previous service. (There is apparently also a former Army WO serving on a VGS who was also allowed to wear this rank badge prior to the change).
Slightly incorrect as SNCOs assigned to AGS also wear the Sgt AC rank slides
Are there any AGS instructors that are not qualified as Aircrew? They (certainly used to be) qualified 2FTS instructors.
Define qualified: I think I know of one who is not “2 FTS qualified” - but is a real world pilot.
i was under the impression if primary role was with the VGS it was AC rank slides all round, regardless of their ground/air role…
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There definitely could be AGS instructors who aren’t qualified RAFAC aircrew, yes (though no doubt many have civilian qualifications)
And do these CFAV wear Aircrew Rank Slides? It was explained to me when I accompanied some cadets to a VGS pre lock down that their Sqn Adj was not a pilot/ instructor and as such wore standard RAFAC rank slides, even though he was 2FTS.