Most definitely, & from what I can see, one of the “strengths” within the ACO.
the contact i had with the ACF while serving in the Army lead me to believe that not having 'CI’s within their structure was a weakness - they were too easily drawn down the ‘this is what the Army does, so it should be what we do’ path, and the fact that everyone within the Adult Staff was part of the CoC, and by being part of that CoC having an interest in not having brilliant ideas questioned, meant that there was less resistance to stupidity.
personally, i think having CI’s ‘floating’ around within the ACO means there is more non-CoC friction for proposals to get through, probably meaning that either those proposals are more honed by the time they get implemented, or that they are more likely to be rejected.
perhaps having a handful of CI’s at HQAC might not be a bad idea…
There is no doubt this is 98% true.
There are very few things we do that NEED uniform or rank. However that said with our bigger brother and parent Service it does somewhat help get things done quicker.
Going on to an RAF Station/MOD facility I need only flash my MOD90 and get a car pass, 2-3minutes maybe. Without uniform and thus the ID, I offer a passport or DL, the details entered into the system and then stand on the line and look into a webcam for my photo to be taken. Maybe another 2-3 minutes which on the grand scheme of things is not going to ruin my day.
Blowing it up a bit with a long queue in the MGR it slows down the queue and workload on the duty Cpl.
Either way the uniform aspect makes life quicker and thus easier.
At the other end of the scale, liaising with our Parent Service make everything easier if holding “rank”. Consider the troubles CIs get in being recognised as CFAVs just getting through the gate of some RAF Stations, not understanding who or what a CI is. Now transfer those troubles to other aspects of liaison with the RAF. Requesting access to buildings for training, or kit required, if there is any chance for a visit to the local Sqn and their aircraft.
I am not saying CIs are useless and cannot achieve anything, but having the “rank” offers some credibility and recognised structure by those who we’re dealing with (and an aspect behind why our junior rank is Sgt).
I think that is clear by the aims of the ATC. In particular “Promote and encourage a practical interest in aviation and the Royal Air Force among young people” and “Provide training which will be useful in the Services and civilian life”
If we as CFAVs are devoid of uniform, it would be suit that neither do the Cadets. And without the uniform removes the need for a rank, which for the Cadets is far easier to accept and understand seniority than it is for a CFAV. Mr Smith (CO) is the guy in command and Mr Evans (WO) makes sure everyone behaves, while Mrs Ross (Adj) looks after the paperwork. That is readily understood by the adult population of CFAVs.
That seniority and role is much more fluid for the Cadets given the disproportionate element of age verse “rank”.
It is not unusual to see a Cpl older than Sgt yet in a uniform/rank free structure would the position of seniority be automatically assumed by age, particularly for the Cadets who in their short lifespan have been continually under the oppressions of authority by those older than them.
Without the Cadet rank structure the skills of leadership and teamwork are harder to impart and demonstrate. Occasionally I work with the Scouts, which I know on the whole are younger than our Cadets, but even the older bunch, their freedom/lack direction to get involved and integrate is very obvious in comparison.
It is also said ATC/ACO Cadets make better recruits for the services than those with no prior Cadet experience. That has to be down to the “training in service life” and the “interest in the Royal Air Force” that is offered and so easily learnt by the manner in which our organisation mirrors closely that of the RAF.
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Oh look, just seen a flying pig go by… 
Minor point - but that’s treating the symptom not the cause - get IDs for CIs.
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. At times, a well-informed CI can interact with people/staff with a much better chance of solving a problem, or, if necessary, jump higher within the “CoC” without the rank issue.
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that certainly works within the DTE sphere - i’m a CI and do my Sqn/Sector range conferences, and as one who knows the system and language, i - even sans uniform - get better results both from DTE and from the other range users than some uniformed Flt Lt or FS who wouldn’t know one end of a Range Card from another. i regularly see other ATC units at such range conferences and all to often the Sqn reps are just sitting in the corner looking blankly at the horse-trading going on around them. thats probably not much fun for the staff involved, but much worse it means that their cadets aren’t getting the benefit of the scrounging that happens.
such scrounging has given my cadets flights on Chinooks as part of their exercises, it got three cadets onto a FAC party while two GR4’s dropped Paveways into the Welsh countryside, its got umpteen cadets ‘a day in the life…’ experiences, and its lead to lots of ongoing relationships that have resulted in camps, day trips, stores-raiding and jollies.
if anyone is thinking ‘oh god, this sounds terrifying’, its not - people want to be helpful - and you don’t need to be uniform: 21/22/23SAS don’t turn up to range conferences in uniform - barring the matching sideburns and North Face duvet jackets - if its good enough for them, its good enough for the ACO…
[quote=“Teflon, post:60, topic:2139”]
Don’t people think that the fact we have a better mix of individuals in the organisation because we don’t all have to wear a uniform? If we went all uniform, there is a danger of more walter mitties, I’ve seen a few of them in the ACO and ACF (more in the latter IMO), this doesn’t mean they aren’t keen to help cadets etc, but the uniform and or rank becomes more important.
[/quote]How does that figure? If anyone is primarily in it for the uniform, the fact that they could have the option of not being in uniform isn’t really relevant.
But Angus that is you,
now kid on you are CI bloggs never been in the forces or knows they system…
Do you think you would have the same success???
it depends - if you’re socially awkward, or think that the people you meet at a range conference are from another planet you’ll get squat, regardless of whether you wear a uniform or not.
however, if you’re a bit outgoing, start off with a joke, and approach people like they are people then you’ll be amazed what you can get - one of the CI’s at my Sqn when i was a cadet just rang up 22SAS (they are in the BT phone book…) and begged for some help for a field weekend we were doing near them that was going tits up in the planning stage. they sent two blokes and a landy full of ration packs and pyro. not only was it an excellent weekend (two bottles of Scotch and a slab went back in the landy on the Sunday…), but my Sqn had the best patrolling drills in the Corps and i had purple snot for a week…
when i was a BK at a Royal Artillery Battery an ATC CI (who was quite hot, and had obviously dealt with drooling Lt’s before…) who was at a range conference talked one of my young and impressionable Troop Commanders into letting a Sqn turn up while we were doing a live fire exercise. they spent the whole weekend with us, fired the guns, did the plotting, acted as FOO’s and even got us to cook for them…
its simple, if you start off with a smile, say ‘hallo Sir, my name is blah, i’m with 123 Sqn ATC and i’m wondering if you can help me…’ you’ll get results 90% of the time - if you’re a bit shy you could just talk to the RLO, who is employed to help you, and just ask for hints and tips.
its impossible for me to overstate the goodwill and desire to help the cadets that there is within the forces, but if you don’t ask you don’t get.
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Completely agree.
Last year, I was CC at BZN where we had three schools send around 25 cadets for their annual camp. One of the accompanying CI’s was the Bursar at one school who had been at BZN for a number of years and had finished only 18mths previously as a Sqn Ldr Nav. She certainly knew her way round the system.
As the camp Adj, she virtually ran the camp leaving me free to get around the sections with the TEST SNCO, poncing favours and the like.
So yes, a well-informed CI who isn’t afraid of getting in amongst them, is worth their weight in gold.
And as an aside, she was a VERY hot scots lass…
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absolutely…and I remember complaining about that when i was a CI many moons ago…falling on deaf ears?!
But if they have the option, why are they in it for the uniform?
Because it somehow benefits the cadets or because it gives them a chance to nonce around?
I think it’s very easy to see why staff believe that either they can do more, or that what they do will have greater effect, if they are in uniform - in fact it may be true, indeed in specific areas it most certainly is.
But this is where the organisation fails in it’s responsibility to make all staff feel they are able to contribute fully and in many ways the precept for this thread, If the Corps employed us they’d be in all sorts of trouble. The only time a uniform might be useful is in face to face with someone, other than that a uniform isn’t needed. However as a CI I ran the stores and as I worked shift at the time did all the stores runs. Apart from two RAF personnel a WO and an SAC, all the others were civvies and these were who you dealt with. Which is something you see more and more. This was 25 years ago.
Does the ATC hark back to some by-gone era where being in uniform is paramount, whereas the armed forces has ‘farmed out’ many areas to civilian contract. Apart from some having a mind-numbing attitude to things and working practices, everything seems to happen OK.
The ACO is a uniformed youth organisation and the uniform is worn by the cadets to create a greater sense of belonging and camaraderie, to engender a sense of pride in the organisation, to instil certain levels of discipline (through care for and preparation of uniform) and to map onto its RAF associations.
All of the above seems somewhat moot for a staff perspective as most of what we do can be done easily without uniform but what it does do is marks us out clearly as part of that same ACO family. This doesn’t make CIs any less useful or relevant but they should only exist within a uniformed staff framework, not in place of it.
But they cannot contribute fully: the ceremonial side of our activities is and should be beyond the scope of non-uniformed staff.
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^^^ what he said… Typed faster then me
I would like to argue the point that CIs can contribute to the ceremonial side of things in a small way. I’ve only been a CI for a year and our unit only has 1 NCO who is often very busy, therefore sometimes I’m outside watching drill if I have a spare 5 minutes, which isn’t very often 
. As I’ve only been a CI for a year, I know AP818 from my cadet NCO days and if I spot an NCO struggling, I won’t take over but I will offer some advice and input whether it be helping teach the manoeuvre or just some verbal advice; I find it’s always appreciated. If it wasn’t, then I’d back off and rightly so.
Contribute to but not directly participate in. In all of the training, prep and run-up to a parade a CI can use their knowledge to develop the cadets and/or uniformed staff if need be but there comes a point where they step out into the public eye when uniform rules and non-uniformed personnel stand on the sidelines and watch.
This is good from my perspective as they can contribute massively to the media element of the event (and comfortably so) while the uniforms are likely to get cajoled onto the parade itself.
Yeah totally agree but in the last 5/6 years I have seen this strange obsession of CIs starting to think they are attending parades as “carers” for want of a better discription where they are coming into the parade area during it, then walking up and down the ranks asking if the cadet is ok or if they want to have a seat a cup of tea…then you challenge them all you get is “duty of care”, I told one to leave who responded I have been tasked to oversee the cadets welfare… No because I wrote the admin order and know what it said!!
It’s that bad and embarrassing we may be “banning” CIs from attending with the Sqns on these parades it’s getting to the rediculous stage.
Yeah I definitely agree with you on the media element as I’m the SQNs media officer controlling the Twitter feed etc. Sometimes I find it can be frustrating not being able to contribute more to the uniform aspect of things but that’s why there are uniform members of staff, something I hope to be someday in the near future.
More that one sqn in my area has had to ban CI’s from parades - this because they were laughing at the magnificent specimens doing a passable impression of a 300lb stroke victim who’d been dipped in glue and thrown in man at Q&M’s…
The problem of ‘mummy’ CI’s is down to OC’s and what they expect and put up with.