Sorry Angus lost me on that one…
its a swipe at the professionals in our midsts who fail by some margin to look, or just be, professional - the pace stick weilding, red-faced drill pig who can’t do simple foot drill, the steely-eyed eater of pies who, if he wore a grey coat (whether it met in the middle or not…), would be commissioned as one of Her Majesty’s Ships, or the Keeper of the Holy Book, Upkeeper of the Sacred Standard, who not only appears to have lost their iron, but who gives the strong impression of having got dressed in the dark while only having the use of one arm.
you know, the utter gang-coupling of sub-standard creatures that the ACO seeks to persuade cadets and staff alike are the pinnacle of_ professional_ standards.
I would normally agree with you on that, but this is totally different it’s good, high quality, mature CIs who know their stuff and all of a sudden turn into a bunch of daft, pandering, would be carers!! It’s as if they get there and there is something in the air/ water… Pass… I don’t know why or how it started (I have a theory of who started it).
I know some here may think this sounds a bit extreme and sounds like picking on CIs but if you saw it you would be embarrassed by them…
The only way to describe it would be to imagine trooping the colour at horse guards everybody is watching then all of a sudden the civilian army staff just walk on to the parade ground and going around every guardsman talking to them, asking them do they want to go for a sit down and a pint (not many are going to knock that back) And then take them away and when the officers/ SNCOs say anything they get a mouthful of how it’s not up to them as its the civvies that are responsible for the troopers welfare and the uniformed people are trying not to cause a scene if front of the public.
Obviously using trooping the colour as an example most can visualise but we’re talking parades with 100-150 Cdts in front of a few thousand people.
Ahh…
know what you mean now…
Get the feeing he got refused appointment one night to SNCO?
1 Like
Maybe because it was in ye olde dayes but when I was a CI I did a lot of prep work wrt parades, rifle drill (continuity, sleeping sentry and banner escort), training standard bearers and other bits, which the SWO and CO were happy with. I also carried my Legion and RAFA branch standards and on one occasion was asked to be parade marshal as a last minute thing. I don’t see why CIs shouldn’t fall in with the squadron on parades and it wouldn’t be too much to ask they at least wore a jacket and tie. Don’t have them marching as there are far too many tiny minds around to cope with that idea.
As for people wandering around with water bottle etc, do not get me started. For someone reason in the last few years people seem to think that in the UK people think they will become dehydrated at all times of the year if they don’t drink something every 10 minutes. In the summer when it gets hot/humid maybe, but in the middle of winter or other times, really? It makes me smile that one of the people in the office buys 2 litre bottles of water and gets through 2 or 3 a week, no they don’t fill it from the tap, as it’s not pure enough or some other rubbish.
The single biggest problem with cadets is not eating anything, especially breakfast. About 10 years ago I sent a letter home to parents stating that it was expected the cadets have breakfast before attending parades after a spate of collapses and that if they collapsed and hurt themselves after not having breakfast we not take any responsibility for them. A couple complained but I said it’s their responsibility to ensure they are ready for the activities, they said they don’t have breakfast any day of the week, I was quite adamant they ate something or don’t bother turning up. This goes to parents of new cadets on joining. My CWC have started giving cadets a hot drink and cake before BoB and Remembrance and if they refuse they just stand in the audience at the parade and I tell people why they are there if they ask.
Can I say that banning CIs from parades is the best idea I have heard here. Ever!
Could we include parade nights when the padre comes and dining in nights to the list?
2 Likes
Ah, methinks thou considers CI’s a plague and a pestilence.
Perchance not.
examples please, or go and see your form tutor!!
Many CI’s just quietly get on with things without feeling the need to strut around saying what a wonderful job they are doing etc etc. .
Many CI’s are also professionally involved in education and/or aviation and are a great asset, to the benefit of the cadets which is, after, what the ACO is all about.
Please restore tar brush to it’s pot!!
Thank ye
And CIs can contribute in a Big way if they are the only Adults Willing and Able to attend Parades as has happened at our Squadron,
1 Like
It was myself that brought up the subject of having to ban the CIs from the parades I am involved in. Personally I think it is a shame as they should be there as I was as a CI, HOWEVER
What would you suggest??
the CIs in question have been spoken too on countless times, a uniformed member of staff stood one year at the side to stand with them and they still barged through onto the parade telling the member of staff it’s was what they were there to do.
Now this may now sound silly but also at risk is security, armed forces day and rememberence parade we can have easily a few thousand people standing at the sides all members of the public barriered away from the uniformed marching contingent of the military and civilian services and also the cadets all segregated from the public with a police patrol going around the fence line. The CIs I am talking about then through open the barrier and wander through and then argue with the police about being there when we tell them to leave as do the police. There is a reason the police have a clear break between those in uniform and those without as silly as it may seem in this day with all the security alerts should we be jumping the barrier??
I think this group I am discussing are disgracing all staff of the ACO with their attitude and have told them this to their faces but they won’t take onboard what is said…
When CIs attend a parade it has to be because they want to be there, not because as a uniformed member of staff they have been told and expected they have to be there.
I’ve never known the Police get overly shirty about people joining a parade and my branch of the RBL and RAFA actively encourage it, especially as Remembrance Parade attendances have got larger. What you could do, given that policing at Remembrance events is getting more and more difficult to achieve, offer the CIs as marshals/stewards, our parade has two policemen/women one of which will be PCSO to deal with road closures. The general conducting of the parade along the route is by anyone who can be encouraged to help. I cannot think anyone will refuse the assistance. It might rattle some that they have a roaming role.
I must admit that I have never been in attendance to a parade that does not have uniformed CFAVs, but I believe this does happen and therefore I do agree with you.
1 Like
On the parade I was discussing The RBL and RAFA don’t have any input into the organisation of the parade other than turning up.
It is all arranged by the army barracks near by and it’s pretty tight for rules and what you can and cannot do. When it comes to security the police do get a bit anxious previous years there has been issues with parades, it made the news for a small riot on armed forces day one year… Armed forces day and a pro IRA march on the same day through the same place!!
With regards to police there is about 40 to 50 police officers in attendance that do the marshalling/ stewarding (and other sitting elsewhere) so there is no place for them there.
I have suggested giving the RBL a hand sell poppies around the cenotaph during the morning but that went down like a lead balloon.
One of the parade requirements is that a few members of staff are designated to stay with the transport we asked for some people to assist in this and two of the CIs volunteered but after we marched off they followed along, when asked about the vehicles one of them responded that he wasn’t standing watching vehicles all morning when he was required to watch the cadets…
It’s like a rock and hard place…
We should be encouraging people to attend and support the cadets etc but on the other hand if they won’t play by the rules (not just ours but the organisers) and don’t want to listen to reason the what else do you do?
Fortunately I have a (probably undeserved) reputation as a photographer within the squadron. This means that I already have the roaming brief and can get on with it, as everyone assumes that a guy in a body warmer with two big camera bags is the press and can go anywhere.
If you’re who I think you are, can you not get away with “I’m new at this” any more? Also, it would be an interesting experiment to switch you with a CI…
Is it not better to have someone (to some degree) trained and assessed in drill teaching drill? Is it not better to have some wearing the uniform while telling a cadet they aren’t up to standard? That’s obiously just the two key examples of an NCO’s responsibilities, but it’s not as simple as “they don’t care” - thrust and respect of SMEs is a key feature of the staff/cadet relationship; you’d trust a mountain bike instructor to tell you how to ride a mountain bike, why should you trust someone that’s not been to Cranwell to tell you how to march?
It matters, and they care, in certain circumstances.
1 Like
I just need to pick up on this as I mentioned in another response regarding respect and trust surrounding certain subjects such as drill - there’s obviously no issue in this case, as your knowledge is clearly recent (and you, presumably, hit a decent standard), the cadets are aware of your history, and you obviously impart the information and advice correctly (something I’m sure you picked up during your time as a cadet). There was also a comment further up about an ex-reg doing banner drill (although you have to be careful with them sometimes - their knowledge and experience isn’t always 100% compatible).
CIs becoming involved in things such as drill becomes a problem and lacks the depth to garner that trust and respect when their knowledge is outdated, poorly presented, cadets don’t know the CI’s history, or they actually have no history and are just sticking their nose in where they shouldn’t (seen it happen).
1 Like
I can’t help but chuckle at the image of this!
[quote=“big_g, post:78, topic:2139, full:true”] attending parades as “carers” for want of a better discription where they are coming into the parade area during it, then walking up and down the ranks asking if the cadet is ok or if they want to have a seat a cup of tea…
[/quote]
We let ours tag on the back during the marchy marchy stuff and they stand there with a good enough view to stop any little Janes or Jimmys from rearranging their faces on the concrete during the standy standy bits.