sorry i should have made that obvious, my suggestion was for anyone moving into uniform.
it would also get around the issue of a SNCO (ATC) transferring to Commission and being left in a postion where attendance at a events such as annual camps is restricted.
rather than adopt the “Off Cdt” route, continue as a SNCO/WO until attending ATF…
[quote=“pEp” post=8169]We could even do initial kitting at ATF, which would ensure everyone could get the right kit at the right time, and have lessons on how to wear it correctly.
Do the same for officer cadets and we’ve instantly made it easier for staff to actually get their uniform too![/quote]
The problem is ATF simply don’t have the time or resources to pull all this off. In an ideal world, perhaps this is what we could do given unlimited resources and staff. It’s just not workable with what we have. There’s only 5 of them there!
Maybe they should work smarter as opposed to harder?
[quote=“Baldrick” post=8191][quote=“pEp” post=8169]We could even do initial kitting at ATF, which would ensure everyone could get the right kit at the right time, and have lessons on how to wear it correctly.
Do the same for officer cadets and we’ve instantly made it easier for staff to actually get their uniform too![/quote]
The problem is ATF simply don’t have the time or resources to pull all this off. In an ideal world, perhaps this is what we could do given unlimited resources and staff. It’s just not workable with what we have. There’s only 5 of them there![/quote]
No I know, I wasn’t suggesting ATF store it or look after it, but there must be a clothing stores at Cranditz. All it would require would be a size forms sent out upon booking on to a course to be returned at least 6 weeks before the start date. This could be passed to clothing stores who could then order in items as requested, ready for the start of the course.
[quote=“petechesh” post=8143]
It wouldnt be a bad thing (for the majority of new staff), i know our training staff have mentioned to us that the ATC will be following suit pretty soon with regards to CFAV training.[/quote]
If I had a quid for every time I’ve heard someone from the ACF say that the ATC will be following what they do shortly, then I could retire to a desert island and drink long cool drinks all day.
From my (albeit quite limited) experience of ACF staff, it is they who should be following our lead and actually looking after their staff and ensuring that they are up to standard.
After all, the ACF have already jumped onto our shooting courses because of our superior quality of instruction and results. What next?
Either cut the old paedo tapes in two and mount them so that 1/2 the remaining width is visible above and below the blue (retaining the ATC pin in the same place as now), or give them CPL tapes to denote pre-ATF but still with a rank for when they are on RAF bases.
It’s not rocket science we’re talking about, it’s needle and thread, or raiding the box at squadron to issue the rank slides that are already in there, and then adding an ATC pin.
The kitting out at ATF was a tenet of the Commissioning review but was shelved due to whatifs- whatifno correct size kit there…
It is of interest that the ACF have re written their training to incorporate most of the ATC SNCO and Officer training and separated some of the specialist training…
We’ve run two activities with SNCOs in white tabs. One’s been saluted, the others all got called ma’am. The cadets are confused as heck.
Male or female? 
[quote=“Hendon Chipmunk”] On the naming front…
Pre-ATF Officers are Pilot Officers but known as ‘Officer Cadets’, [/quote]
Within the Corps/Org, correct, they are to be known/ addressed as. So your related point is extremely valid:
Why didn’t you pitch for the name ‘Sergeant Cadet’ as being an equally-logical potential name for pre-SSIC appointees, rather than ‘SNCO Cadet’. What are they now to be called?
I suppose we could also still see direct appointees to WO(ATC) coming in from regular service. Or, very rarely, (and very-forgotten in the rules) even ex active reserves WOs…I know of two current RAuxAF WOs who would make absolutely-superb WOs(ATC). They’ve always been (how will I put this politely…) puzzled, by the fact that current ACO dress regulations state that they’d have to wear crowns on entry. A worst-case entry path for them could be going from wearing Royal Arms and called Sir/Ma’am, [strike]to being called Warrant Officer Cadets at appointment, wearing white tapes until ATF, [/strike]and then being given crowns at the end. Although they will only ever be in tiny numbers (if that), I’d like to think that these very-special people were able to be treated properly by the system.
Has there been an official statement further clarifying all this? Modes of address, I mean. What are pre-ATF appointees to be called?
[quote] “…And they are to be known within the organisation as…”[/quote] ??
[quote=“Leeroy” post=8121]
Come on Wilf get mocking one up![/quote]
Haven’t sat-down for weeks, and this forum post is no different (this done in 2mins from a phone, standing in a breakfast queue) but, such a visual aid would be quite easy to produce. Blue chevrons, white backing- it’s going to look rather naval, isn’t it? Almost like RN service tapes on old-school deck whites.
On a related thread (all puns intended): composite woven slides are expected out soon, that will include VRT titles. For wear at VGS etc (and presumably may become standard issue for Offrs across the Org in all working dress?). I heard this directly myself from the highest authority, so it will happen. Makes a lot of sense, I’d say.
wilf_san
Straight from the WO ATF’s mouth, reported back to me by one of my Sgts who has just returned from SSIC…
Pre-ATF Sgts should be referred to as ‘Staff’ until they have completed the course!
Whether that will come out formally through the CoC, who knows, but that is ATFs intent.
That sounds almost a snap statement rather than a considered judgement. Could be just WO ATF opinion rather than anything formal maybe
However as you say, we’ll see what happens formally.
[quote=“wilf_san” post=8367]
[size=5]Sgt Cdt[/size] rankslide … Or will it be a SNCO Staff rankslide…?
wilf_san
Why would you have to be known as SNCO/Sgt cdt etc ? Officer cadets are a formal post within the RAF hence we have taken followed suit for our officers
How about just Probationary Sgt or Acting Sgt to fall in line when new recruits joining the RAF Police or as a PTI
I think the general feeling from the ground is that HQAC should have used the white stripe under the rank slide in the same manner as when we had the first requirement for the over 18 cadets to be identified differently
I also have 2 new Sgts on my unit and on the first night were both congratulated and saluted a couple of times before i had chance to explain on first parade
The main problem arises when you have officer cadets and new Sgts in a room in blues with no headdress … very difficult to spot who is who at a distance
Nah, they can both make the tea.
[quote=“mr black” post=8443]Why would you have to be known as SNCO/Sgt cdt etc ? Officer cadets are a formal post within the RAF hence we have taken followed suit for our officers
[/quote]
As is the RAF non-commissioned NCA rank of Aircrew Cadet…existing as in a pre-qual/pre-Sergeant rank.
Seems logical, but maybe slightly dated. There seems to be a reluctance these days within most uniformed service to refer to Acting when it comes to probationary/training ranks (hence perhaps the end of Acting Plt Off VRT, and the adoption of Off Cadet?). Acting ranks now only appear to apply to rank when it’s awarded above subtantive. That’s my own explanation, but I’m betting there’s something formal to that effect lurking somewhere in a low-numbered DIN or JSP.
That always was an interim measure, though. In fairness, so is the use of the wider Offr-pattern ones, pending the production of these new ‘shadow chevron’ slides.
[quote=“mr black”]I also have 2 new Sgts on my unit and on the first night were both congratulated and saluted a couple of times before i had chance to explain on first parade
The main problem arises when you have officer cadets and new Sgts in a room in blues with no headdress … very difficult to spot who is who at a distance[/quote]
Yes…the solution to that one will of course be the new U/T blue chevrons, and perhaps a future amendment to the regs regarding Off Cadets slides, such that they’d include a Plt Offr braid down the centre. That’d reflect the point that Off Cdts RAFVR(T) are pre-commissioned, whereas OCs RAFVR(UAS) are uncommissioned.
wilf_san
[quote=“wilf_san” post=8440][quote=“wilf_san” post=8367]
[size=5]Sgt Cdt[/size] rankslide … Or will it be a SNCO Staff rankslide…?
wilf_san[/quote]
There is a cheaper way, there was one pattern of NCO rank slides which were perfect negative images inside out, with no loose threads at all. (not like the recent cheap ones)
Not one to resurrect a thread (hey its only been three weeks so at least it’ll be warm!)
So the questions are:
What did we originally ask for?
When can we expect further information?
What will we end up with?
I had a chat with the WWO here at the weekend he did say that the whole white tab thing was a huge muck up which we already knew…
He did also say that within the next month or so it will be Sgt rank tabs with a white tab above why this wasnt done first off I have no idea.
[quote=“zinggy” post=8948]I had a chat with the WWO here at the weekend he did say that the whole white tab thing was a huge muck up which we already knew…
He did also say that within the next month or so it will be Sgt rank tabs with a white tab above why this wasnt done first off I have no idea.[/quote]
Maybe it was a cunning plan… Bring something in temporarily which is so ridiculous a solution that we welcome the intended result with open arms?
Could be never thought about it that way!