Waterproofs for Dof E

Everyone Sports, Expeds and Adventure Training
1

I have always told my cadets when they start out on the expedition section especially at Bronze level that if the cannot get (afford) a waterproof jacket then they should use their GelTec issue jacket. I know its crap but it is waterproof and is better than nothing or even worse something for a tenner that claims to be waterproof but leaks worse than sponge at bath time. I did this when I was a cadet, I didn’t get a gortex jacket until I was at gold level and used my geltec for bronze and silver.
Last weekend one of my cadets who was on a wing open D of E training was told that they could not wear their geltec as it was “uniform” and “uniform was not allowed on D of E. DPM is banned but a blue rain coat?

What is your opinion on this?

2
3

Somebody is talking out of their hoop. I’d rather have a dry cadet who’s happy and completes their exped - than a wet cadet who’s smelly, holding the team back and, ultimately, unnecessarily at risk of getting ill! If the Assessor was from an external body (rather than from within the ACO), I doubt they’d have blinked to be honest!!!

DofE shouldn’t be a catalyst for propping up the local Millets or Blacks when there’s a perfectly servicable alternative hanging about gathering dust in your squadron stores. I might be a piece of “issue” uniform - but it’s role is there for keeping cadets warm & dry.

I can (vaguely) appreciate the DPM issue (although would still condone their use with no other option (assuming the whole team wasn’t wearing them and it was just one or two members of the team!). Hell, it only seems to be us (the ACO) which is hung up on the DPM issue - the number of school groups, Scout groups and other groups I’ve seen wearing them out of the hills shouldn’t make it an issue for us!!!

What we’ve done over the years is begged and borrowed a selection of civi waterproofs which we issue for DofE for those that don’t have them - purely on the basis that they give marginally more protection than a Geltex and you don’t look like a doofus when wearing them.

4

What is the actual reason behind banning uniform clothing for DofE/AT stuff (other than “because we’re told to”)

5

Interesting that cadet force DofE rules say that no uniform clothing or equipment should be worn / used, but when they do it with a school they can use pretty much what they want if it is suitable.

6

The ones that are often rolled out are:

[ul]
[li]Militarisation of the DofE scheme[/li]
[li]We looked too threatening[/li]
[li]We look like soldiers and members of the public get confused[/li]
[li]If there’s an incident and the team are in DPM, we won’t be able to find them[/li]
[li]You can’t remotely supervise people who are in camouflage because they disappear[/li]
[/ul]

I’m sure there are more. I’m not sure what the truth is.

7

In reality, none of them are really true.

8

I have to say that I’ve always been fine with cadets wearing their CS95 trousers on AT… plus suitable civvy top-halves.

9

Our LA has just bought CS95 Goretex trousers for their outdoor ed centre as they are the best value for money waterproofs trousers available! Yet aren’t meant to let our cadets wear them for AT… sigh…

1 Like
10

Speak to your WATTO/RATTO, Wing/Region should have a pool of kit they can issue to Sqns. Speaking from an assessors point of view I think I’d be asking questions if a cadet rocked up in a Jeltex jacket, they aren’t really suitable. Plus the old ACP31 says:

“Anoraks (Jeltechs) are issued for wear in cold or wet weather, but not on ceremonial parades. They are not to be worn in rough physical conditions such as rock climbing, shooting or gliding.”

I would class a DoE Exped as rough physical conditions.

MB

11

[quote=“Batfink” post=12145]
[li]If there’s an incident and the team are in DPM, we won’t be able to find them[/li]
[li]You can’t remotely supervise people who are in camouflage because they disappear[/li][/quote]
These are the two that are uppermost.

Years ago we “lost” a group and the fact they had multi-coloured clothing and rucksacks meant we saw them walking against a treeline and was able to meet them and put them right. Had they been in DPM of any sort we would have struggled until they silhouetted against a skyline. I do think that not wearing DPM makes cadets have to think more about what they wear.

As for wearing jeltex, there has to be a use for them somewhere. Most cadets now come to the sqn in civvy coats and about the only time jeltex might get worn is annual camp and ‘remembrance’ parades. I wouldn’t say that a DofE exped is a particularly rough/physical activity, in comparison to some others. As said if it keeps them dry, crack on, we’d be in all sorts of doo doo if they got ill, duty of care and all that. In all my years of outdoorsy stuff (personal and cadets) there have only been a handful of times when it has rained sufficiently to make it worth putting waterproofs on.

12

My bold, it stops the “I’ll just wear what we did for fieldcraft” mindset. So the cadets think about what to wear and learn about kit selection

That being said I think wearing a DPM x,y,z is fine as long as they can say why.

13

I wholeheartedly agree with the no DPM aspects from an assessors perspective, principally on the visibility aspect, but we do from time to time get the same problem, which we solve by making them wear a hi viz bib over the top.
Simple to deal with and readily visible.
Mind you we also hold a stock of waterproofs and rucsacs to lend out too, so it isnt often a problem.

14

I concur on the no DPM policy it is designed to make people difficult to spot which is unsafe for countryside/hill walking.

A hi vis is not enough to counteract this e.g. the high vis will not be visible on their back when they put a ruck sack on. If they fall behind some rocks so their top half are obscured and only their legs are visible hi vis doesn’t help. - Yes I am plucking examples out of the air but their are better things to wear so I don’t think it is that difficult to select other clothing.

I was on DofE Bronze practice a couple of weeks ago and had a single cadet from another sqn turn up wearing her DPM uniform with her Jeltex as her only waterproofs. - bad drill that Sqn (also despite saying she has been through all her pre-expedition training she turned up without food - let alone a menu plan).

Anyway with the Jeltex - it is a pretty rubbish waterproof for DofE, it is big and heavy and doesn’t have a hood. Whilst I do understand the personal cost struggles of cadets and their parents for DofE kit a light civi waterproof jacket is quite a useful bit of kit to own. However as mentioned above there are avenues to go down for borrowing kit, wing stores, Sqn stores, borrowing from friends etc.

15

on the other hand, walk into Cotswold or GoOutdoors and see if you can buy a pair of waterproof overtrousers that aren’t black…

while i see the obvious benefits of being reasonably visible should there be a problem, i think the ‘no DPM’s’ thing is misguided for three reasons - firstly that even if a group is entirely clothed in DPM you will be able to see them because they are moving, secondly because they are not singletons falling into holes, they are groups who can immediately come to the aid of their colleague and create a large hi-viz object like a bothy bag, and thirdly, given the above, they are far better off in a set of CS95 waterproofs than in some cheap tat they buy in a hurry because the DofE joining sheet says they have to.

interestly, i have just done a random experiment on the visibility of civvy walking kit: i looked at Go Outdoors to see what was available…

of 12 mens fleeces they sell, only one was anything other than grey or black.

of 27 pairs of walking trousers, every single one was grey, olive, dark blue or black.

of 76 jackets - waterproof, softshell etc… perhaps 10 were red, or bright green/blue. the rest were black or grey.

given this anecdotal, but not unreasonble, evidence, i have to ask quite how much more visible cadets wandering about Dartmoor, or the Peaks in mist and rain are actually going to be in civvy kit than DPM’s…?

civvy walking kit in the 1980/90’s was brilliantly bright - orange trousers, yellow jacket, red rucksac - but now its not, its black, grey, dark blue or olive. perhaps its time to to realise that the civvy kit is no longer a great deal better than DPM’s in this regard?

i’m still for a hi-viz vest strapped to the rucksac, and a bright yellow bothy bag for emegencies, but the idea that cadets will disapear because we can’t see their trousers is just silly.

16

on the other hand, walk into Cotswold or GoOutdoors and see if you can buy a pair of waterproof overtrousers that aren’t black…

while i see the obvious benefits of being reasonably visible should there be a problem, i think the ‘no DPM’s’ thing is misguided for three reasons - firstly that even if a group is entirely clothed in DPM you will be able to see them because they are moving, secondly because they are not singletons falling into holes, they are groups who can immediately come to the aid of their colleague and create a large hi-viz object like a bothy bag, and thirdly, given the above, they are far better off in a set of CS95 waterproofs than in some cheap tat they buy in a hurry because the DofE joining sheet says they have to.

interestly, i have just done a random experiment on the visibility of civvy walking kit: i looked at Go Outdoors to see what was available…

of 12 mens fleeces they sell, only one was anything other than grey or black.

of 27 pairs of walking trousers, every single one was grey, olive, dark blue or black.

of 76 jackets - waterproof, softshell etc… perhaps 10 were red, or bright green/blue. the rest were black or grey.

given this anecdotal, but not unreasonble, evidence, i have to ask quite how much more visible cadets wandering about Dartmoor, or the Peaks in mist and rain are actually going to be in civvy kit than DPM’s…?

civvy walking kit in the 1980/90’s was brilliantly bright - orange trousers, yellow jacket, red rucksac - but now its not, its black, grey, dark blue or olive. perhaps its time to to realise that the civvy kit is no longer a great deal better than DPM’s in this regard?

i’m still for a hi-viz vest strapped to the rucksac, and a bright yellow bothy bag for emegencies, but the idea that cadets will disapear because we can’t see their trousers is just silly.[/quote]

To your points

  1. what about when they are not moving
  2. You shouldn’t assume a group will never split up, or have someone fall behind. We tell groups to sick together but occasionally things happen. All it takes is the person at the back of the group to stop to tie a shoe lace without letting the other know.
  3. I just plain disagree there are plenty of affordable waterproofs, as I previously said it can be a useful piece of clothing outside of DofE and AT for anyone living in the UK

Whilst much outdoors kit might be green, grey or black there is still a fundamental difference between block colour trousers and DPM (which is specifically designed to blend into surroundings). But you are correct that bright unnatural colours are preferable and if I were purchasing sqn kit that is what I would select.

I am not certainly saying you can’t or shouldn’t strap a high vis to the back of a ruc sac (especially if the route involves roads). But I would tell you that I know of an incident where it has been very difficult to locate an injured cadet who tumbled down the side of a hill wearing DPM.

A useful thing about the no uniform rule is that is it complies with and reinforces best practice guidance for fell walking etc i.e. wear clothing that make you visible.

17

a DofE group only needs to be seen when there is a problem - when they are taking a 10 minute break to scoff a mars bar and fiddle with their socks they don’t need to be visible to all and sundry. if they are in trouble, they can whip out a bothy bag - and at 6ftx6ft and bright yellow they are a damn sight more visible than if the cadets were wearing red jackets…

with regards to splitting up - cadets should be carrying whistles, they also come equipped with a useful noisemaker they tend to keep under their noses. if they get past that stage they stick their hi-viz vest on and either sit tight or navigate their way out of being on their own.

i’ve looked for people in civvy, if subdued (grey, brown etc…), walking gear - they were either obvious because they were moving (as DPM is…) or damn near invisible.

i contend that a cadet in DPM with a hi-viz vest and a bright yellow rucksack cover and bothy bag is as likely to be seen as a cadet in red jacket, yellow trousers and lime rucksack, and more likely to be seen than a cadet wearing the ‘average’ modern civvy walking gear - therefore i have no problem with DPM’s (provided the hi-viz stuff is also taken) being used, particularly when money not being spent on civvy gear is likely to spent on decent boots.

moreover, cadets are more likely to consider the ‘can i be seen by the rescue helicopter?’ question if they are in DPM’s, whereas when they are in non-camouflaged clothing they will just assume that they can be seen, and often, they can’t.

18

[quote=“angus” post=12206][quote=“Pamela” post=12202]

To your points…
[/quote]

a DofE group only needs to be seen when there is a problem - when they are taking a 10 minute break to scoff a mars bar and fiddle with their socks they don’t need to be visible to all and sundry. if they are in trouble, they can whip out a bothy bag - and at 6ftx6ft and bright yellow they are a damn sight more visible than if the cadets were wearing red jackets…

with regards to splitting up - cadets should be carrying whistles, they also come equipped with a useful noisemaker they tend to keep under their noses. if they get past that stage they stick their hi-viz vest on and either sit tight or navigate their way out of being on their own.

i’ve looked for people in civvy, if subdued (grey, brown etc…), walking gear - they were either obvious because they were moving (as DPM is…) or damn near invisible.

i contend that a cadet in DPM with a hi-viz vest and a bright yellow rucksack cover and bothy bag is as likely to be seen as a cadet in red jacket, yellow trousers and lime rucksack, and more likely to be seen than a cadet wearing the ‘average’ modern civvy walking gear - therefore i have no problem with DPM’s (provided the hi-viz stuff is also taken) being used, particularly when money not being spent on civvy gear is likely to spent on decent boots.

moreover, cadets are more likely to consider the ‘can i be seen by the rescue helicopter?’ question if they are in DPM’s, whereas when they are in non-camouflaged clothing they will just assume that they can be seen, and often, they can’t.[/quote]

What people are forgeting is Combat kit is really rubbish for walking compared to the civi stuff you can buy thats clothing and boots I walked the west higland way in CS95’s and it was 96 miles of hell when I did it again in civi kit it was so much more enjoyable and not as painfull on my feet and the kit I had with me was a lot lighter and just as good if not better

19

I don’t get the fascination with wearing DPM of any type when doing anything that isn’t “blue” and whole underlying feeling we must do activities in some sort of uniform or it’s not a proper ATC activity. I wonder if some staff afraid that unless they have a rank tab of some description people won’t know who they are?
Frankly IMO wearing civvies when doing AT means you can wander around in public and not draw any form of attention, staff or cadets.

20

the ‘why DPM’s?’ question is pretty bloody obvious to anyone with half a brain - they are either cheap or free.

civvy walking gear, which i entirely accept is vastly, lightyears better than CS95, is anything but.

possibly a bit less focus on staff wearing DPM and a bit more focus on the willingness/ability of parents with two kids to buy ruinously expensive civvy walking gear when energy bills have just gone up 8% and most peoples pay is worth 20% less than it was 5 years ago might provide some illumination to those sorely needing it.

i earn well above the national average, as does my partner - however my childrens school shoes cost £30 a pair and they go through two pairs each a year, i’ve just got a bill for £180 for trumpet lessons (oh joy…), i’ve got two birthdays between now and Christmas and my car has done nearly 200,000 miles.

so, imagine my household income was about a third to a quarter of what it is - the national average - and tell me again about the need to buy two sets of walking gear - £200 each, and thats with very mediocre boots that they will grow out of in 12 months when there exists a cheap/free and ‘good enough’ option in my local sqn’s stores…

a little bit less focus on the optimum, and a little bit more on ‘this will do - it works and its availble to everyone’ might do this thread the world of good.