Walking leader qualifications

Considering the number of sentient adults who think it’s safe to take their kids up the Pyg Track in Flipflops and with no kit but a bottle of water and a hat I’m not sure the test works in that way.

The other thing to consider is how do we ensure that the Instructor actually knows what they are doing and is conversant with the subject they are training? I’ve had plenty of Cadets turn up on DofE from other units having been trained locally by unqualified Staff who claim to know what they are doing but who appear to have gone to the General Melchett school of Navigation.

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The counter to that of course is that teaching navigation generally won’t get you very far with cadets. What they need is to practise navigation, and owing to the rules on popping out for an hour to walk around some local footpaths many units struggle to do so.

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there is, and I am against using the phrase “loop hole”, but an exception where “local expertise” can be used in place of an qualification.
perhaps it is no longer valid, but I seem to recall hearing in a bar on a course, or camp somewhere that that Dartmoor moors requires an ML, clearly not because of the relief of the ground, but because of its remoteness, ie it is outside of BEL remit and thus could only be ML qual that counted.

but some Staff were about to get an exception to this by having “local expertise” - I am sure there was a more formal sounding name for it, but allowed Staff who had years of experience operating in a area to continue to do so, a bit like Grandfather rights when the NGBs came in but ML was a hell of an effort to do.

a flexible WATTO could visit and offer an assessment of the training suggested and allow an evenings walk around a park with map and compass with the strict restriction it was only valid for that location and that activity.

I have said this many a time.
rather than punish the majority for the errors and mistakes of a minority (often an individual), by forcing changes to systems and activities which have occurred without problem or issue, and in some cases bare no measurable difference to the safety or success of the event why not strike off the idiot in the first place and then consider was this bad judgement of the individual, perhaps going beyond their experience, competency and/or qualification or simply down to their own (lack of) understanding and/or foolish approach?

the organisation looks at individual A with Qualification X and believes individual B is capable of making the same errors - capable yes, but should it be that black and white? should individuals (qualifications) be measures by their weakest performer?

I am sure there are plenty of examples where the individual has been a tit, and idiot or not followed a procedure and rather than focus on the individual, perhaps remove the qualification, suspend or restrict what they can do with it and offer retraining, the easiest option is to get everyone to jump through a new hoop because someone, somewhere proved without that hoop problems can occur without perhaps considering why the individual allowed the problem to occur in the first place.

I am not just talking about AT here, but all qualifications, shooting being the obvious one with additional hoops which have occurred over the decades with no measureable indication it has become safety or more successful.

An example which comes to mind, is the tragic case of the AEF pilot who didn’t have full movement in his neck and thus could have missed the chance to see a nearby glider - the result was the aircraft collided and lives lost.

one of the outcomes was to stop all pilots over a certain age (65?) from flying cadets to stop such an case occurring again.
now I am not going to speak ill of the dead and call the pilot an idiot for flying, but is a very specific and individual case which was created by the individuals actions (and that of the Dr who signed him off as fit despite knowing about the restricted movement in his neck - from what I recall that Dr was suspended from approving “fitness to fly” certificates).

does a pilot suddenly become a danger at the age of 65?
is a Cadet at danger by visiting the local park with a map and compass with someone who is not “trained and qualified” in organising a full day walk and overnight camp?

of course it is the easy route to take to change policy.

it avoids difficult conversations with the individual who messed up. in this organisation it avoids telling off a volunteer who might leave if told “no you can’t do that anymore” and no one wants to be the Senior Officer who was the person who kicked out CI Bloggs

I think you are referring to the ‘Competence Through Experience’ scheme which was abolished years ago. Dartmoor is classic Hill and Moorland Leader terrain - it’s not lowland, nor is it mountainous. I imagine back then WGL (old) or HML (new) wasn’t a thing and thus ML probably was the only option.

a flexible WATTO could visit and offer an assessment of the training suggested and allow an evenings walk around a park with map and compass with the strict restriction it was only valid for that location and that activity.

And this is entirely feasible with the current policy providing you have an ‘adjacent safe restricted area’, which will, in time I presume, be superseded by a formal Extended Squadron Footprint policy which applies to AT as well.

The main argument against this is the potential for scope creep without oversight. What started off as a two hour led navigation practice in the local area gradually over time morphs into a two hour, remotely supervised orienteering exercise in the dark…

quite possible yes, and thank you I didn’t realise it had gone, although only knew of it rather than in any detail.

absolutely but this is where SMS approval comes in.

“clone” event helps if it is a repeat event. however if moving from 2hr nav practice to remote supervision that change in activity should be listed in the SMS activity and where the WATTO steps in and says, “Steve, now come on, think about it, we agreed you could do fair weather, day light navigation along the 2 mile stretch of the Roman road, we did not agree that a night exercise with navigation and camp craft cooking component was included in what we agreed you’d cover”

MattB that is precisely the problem I’m hoping to circumnavigate.

Dont work around it.Just ask your WATTO for help. Check with your neighbouring sqns - somebody might have a BEL or LLA available to support.

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I fully recall the OC Conference when the then WATTO stood up and told us we all needed NGBs to do things, which brought some grumblings, BUT went on, once we had them we wouldn’t need to seek approval if we stayed within the scope of the qualification. Still waiting for that to happen 17/18 years later. Ever think you’ve been sold a pup?
A couple went for ML but most of us stayed at BELA and TBH its conditions covers a heck of a lot of the UK and more than adequate for our needs, which is mostly upto Silver DofE.
I think the organisation is now far too over cautious. If it’s felt someone is over stepping the mark, deal with them directly, I dunno can’t run activities for a period.

Rather than starting a new thread and I suspect I know who is going to be able to answer this @redowling!

Joint Services Mountain Leader Training, is that course subject to the same restrictions as the Mountain Training Course for us with regards to the 2 Years?

My reading of the ACATI is that they can use it within their remit (below the snow line and no steep ground) permanently but could do with confirmation.

Yes, that’s correct - they can use it within their remit. The course includes an element of assessment so it’s not quite the same as the civilian Mountain Leader training.

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Excellent thanks, I’m in the process of kicking a number of ML(T) staff who now can’t use their qualifications so that could’ve been quite embarrassing!

Fair one. As a slight aside, we’ve now been written out of eligibility to attend JSAT courses completely so I expect it will only be the odd service personnel we see with those qualifications in the future.

How come? Not that I ever attended but it seems a bit odd, especially if regular service instructors are still eligible for our courses.

Various reasons, but largely predicated on ‘not part of the armed forces’, JSP419 not applying because of that, and JSP814 specifying we should be qualified in accordance with civilian recognised NGB quals.

So another casualty of the CFC then!

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CIs/SNCOs were never part of the RAFVR, though and I believe were eligible?

Correct, they were. But now no-one is.

To be fair, they were hard to get on anyway.

Paddling courses in particular were a right PITA, they weren’t automatically BC compliant, you needed a signed off RAF swim test and had no priority for bookings.
And it’s not like our own courses are over subscribed…

Yep, they come with a load of military bull that isn’t really necessary or relevant for us, plus as you say, may not necessarily equate to a civilian qualification as they rely on the instructor being qualified appropriately within that NGB.

Only down side is I had my eye set on a cheeky weeks parachuting :slight_smile:

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I did ML training at Llanrwst as a CI, and got both the military and civilian ML(T) stamps (in the grand scheme of things, I guess not many civilians got the military ML(T)) - there was an assessment that week too but they’d bought in an assessor so that the candidates would get NGB rather than just the military ML