VR(T) Commission Change


the AEF did,
the vast majority of VGS transferred over, I think it was about 6 staff had to keep their VR(T) commission


AEF staff are to keep the VRT Commission for now


AEF staff pilots will retain VRT commissions.
The six VRT commissions retained at 2FTS are gliding examiners posts. They have full time jobs at Syerston and have VRT commissions. Without military commissions they wouldn’t be able to exercise their duties. For example, the Robin tug at Syerston is civilian registered, military owned so the same rules as the Tutor apply.


I realise there’s a physical difference between an airframe and a weapons system but why are military commissions still required for the aviation aspects but not for shooting activities Cadet Forces undertake?


109115 has pretty much answered the question, but I don’t think you’ve understood it. A military commission is simply not needed for shooting.

The VRT commission is not being retained for all aviation activities, as the officers on the VGS units have moved over to the CFC.

The AEF Staff Pilots and the 6 Central Gliding School Examiners are a very specific case. They fly civilian registered aircraft which are operated and owned by the MOD. If they did this with a CFC commission (civvy status) they would be required to have a private pilots license (ppl) and be governed by civil law. Because they have a military commission and subject to the AFA, they do not need a ppl and can fly these aircraft on “brevet”.


In the real military I believe shooting comes under the auspice of NCOs, hence the dislike of CIs getting involved in shooting.

However go back 78-72 years and there was an awful lot of SNCO pilots, my granddad said, “it was so the toff’s sons as officers weren’t killed in droves as they were in the first war”. So the upper classes allowed ordinary people to suffer the losses. Once the war was over and the immediate danger gone, all of a sudden SNCOs weren’t regarded a good enough to fly RAF aircraft, although not the same in the AAC, where there are a IIRC a lot of NCO pilots.

So why keep flying restricted to commissioned officers? Protection of a myth, and nothing else. You will get guff like officers are trained to be managers and NCOs can’t do things like that. But going by some of the decisions made by these managers, I doubt their abilities above say NCOs.


I think that you’ve actually missed the point there - it’s the military part that is necessary RE the AEF, not the commissioned part (as you point out, AAC have non-commissioned pilots).

Hence why they need to keep the RAFVR(T) part - after all, they’d still be commissioned in the RAFAC if they changed over with us, but they wouldn’t be military.


The Air Navigation Order Article 145 is the issue- “Flight crew licence requirement – exception for members of HM Forces. A person may act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft registered in the United Kingdom without being the holder of an appropriate licence if, in so doing, the person is acting in the course of his or her duty as a member of any of Her Majesty’s naval, military or air forces.” CFC doesnt count for this purpose.

Ps - Tutor and the CGS Robin are civil owned, civil registered but military operated


NCOs fly Air cadet gliders. They’re military registered.


They’re also gliders, which means that the regulations are very different to light aircraft.


Yeh…Different regulations for every aircraft operated by the military. Different rules for who can command an aircraft dependant on service, Army, Navy or RAF.
I guess if the RAF wanted NCOs to fly certain types of aircraft, they’d change the rules/regs?
Teflon’s point regarding NCOs during war time…Well the circumstances were a bit desperate/different…?


Gentlemen, can anyone say if the 1990 Royal Warrant has been superseded? It specified that officers of the Air Training Corps should be officers of the Training Branch of HM Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve, Doubtless that provision was to ensure a legal basis for issuing orders and compliance therewith.


That’s fine then, never ever ever issued an Order to anyone - well apart from my G&T in the bar


Perhaps not, surely you have received an order from a Senior Officer, say whilst visiting an RAF station? If one is not integrated into the command structure how is one held accountable?


No one has ever issued me an order. I have been asked to do things, but never ordered.


And now that’s all they have a right to do, irrespective of service or rank. (And especially if they are a regular officer).


One presumes you don’t count the Queen’s Commission as an order then?

You are therefore carefully and diligently to discharge your voluntary duties as such in the rank of [insert rank] or in such other rank as We may from time to time hereafter be pleased to promote or appoint you to, and lead the officers, adult instructors and cadets placed under your authority and use your best endeavours to keep them in good order. And We do hereby direct them to respect your authority as their superior officer, and you to observe and follow such instructions as from time to time you shall receive from any superior officer, in pursuance of the Trust hereby reposed in you.


Never been on a station camp? (on which you are subject to Camp Standing Orders from the Stn Cdr - orders in writing)

Never been staff on a range? (on which you are subject to Range Orders, not to mention orders from the RCO)

I mean, sure, they don’t say ‘do this, and that’s an order’ like they do on TV…


Some do. They are morale sponges and need sacking off- but, sadly, often get moved on to positions of least damage instead.


I did get close to issuing a direct face to face order recently… but the member of staff was due to move on (and now has) so it wasn’t worth the fight. Of course now I would lack the authority to insist.