[quote=“Gullon” post=5242]I want to be able to give back to the atc and use my knowledge of field craft learnt in the otc but when I turn 20 what do I do I can’t be a VRT officer or sgt atc as I am already in the reserve forces so my only option is CI and not be able to teach field craft the thing i’m most qualified to do. [/quote]Says who? Nothing stopping CIs from teaching fieldcraft.
[double post]
[quote=“MattB” post=5249]Says who? Nothing stopping CIs from teaching fieldcraft.[/quote]Indeed, so long as they don’t wear combat uniform to do so 
Why do you need to be in combat uniform to teach fieldcraft?
Would you expect someone doing H&S to stand there hi-vis and hard hat?
I think sometimes as an organisation we get a little too anal about things of no consequence as a potential barrier to delivering a subject.
If someone was so insecure in their knowledge that they needed to dress up to give them credibility :ohmy:
Bloody hell! I actually agree with something GHE said! :huh:
Exactly…been there, done that. You could technically be a VRT officer cadet too…
Or…you could wait until you commission and be an SI… (since this order applies to Officer Cadets from University units)
My plan ref: ATC was stay as ‘on call’ CI while doing training with RAuxAF then apply to be SI (until I had to give up the ATC on doctors orders recently, but that’s a whole other story…)
** DUTY RUMOUR UPDATE **
Information received from a source on a different topic - standby on that - but could explain this policy.
Apparently their is something in QRs which state that Officer Cadets cannot be given any formal/legal supervisory responsibilties, since they are by definition, cadets under training.
This explains (to me at least) why URNU/OTC/UAS Officer Cadets cannot be SIs, why there are VR(UAS) A/Plt Offs, and why VR(T) Officers are commissioned on appointment.
…and could also explain why the non-commissioned VR(T) Officer Cadet project has stumbled, and the retention of the VR(T) “pre-graduate” Officer Cadet.
If this is correct it makes perfect sense, but as usual the policy is not explained, it is simply promulgated.
Therefore my only continued gripe is the fact that the policy contradicts the regulation that cadets cannot simultaneously an ATC cadet and a member of the Reserve Forces, e.g. an attested VR(UAS) Officer Cadet.
Discuss.
Cheers
BTI
PS) Grateful for a QR reference anyone with access to such things!!
[quote=“bti” post=5259] Apparently their is something in QRs which state that Officer Cadets cannot be given any formal/legal supervisory responsibilties, since they are by definition, cadets under training.
[/quote]
I thought I said that weeks ago?
^ not quite (sorry to be pedantic)…
[quote]tango_lima wrote:
The other thing to consider here is that the officer cadets in University units are just that: officer cadets and so technically under phase one training as far as the system is concerned…
…UAS is Phase 1 Training. Troops under Phase 1 Training (and possibly Phase 2 Training) can’t be Service Instructors
[/quote]
There is no specific ACO regulation preventing Phase 1/2 troops becoming SIs (although the minimum SI age of 20 in PI601 would automatically rule the majority out) however, QRs may well do. We wouldn’t know at the coalface though, because how often do we have visibility of QRs?
No - my source suggests that there is a QR which specifically prevents Officer Cadets being given command responsibility, and thus the reason why the ACO cannot go down the route of VR(UAS) style non-commissioned Officer Cadets (because VR(T) Officer Cadets would always be in command of cadets) …plus it would explain why university unit Officer Cadets cannot be SIs.
At the risk of thread drift, I resurrect the idea of non-commissioned Officer Cadets(ATC) for 12 months before OIC and commissioning into the RAFVR(T) for successful graduates …this would exempt Officer Cadets both from QRs and Service Law, and would mean that - like the WO/SNCO(ATC) and CI cadres - they could be given supervisory responsibilities whilst serving a 12 month “apprenticeship”.
Cheers
BTI
Your reasoning is sound BTI, as PAM21 also forbids Officer Cadets to plan and conduct ranges (despite having passed their RCO course) until commissioned.
As for why VR(T) Officer Cadets are still being commissioned upon appointment, you could also be spot-on. If a CI or SNCO gained a range qual and then went on to be commissioned, they would have their qual suspended if they had to go down the same route as a regular officer cadet.
That said, I don’t see how your last paragraph would work and TBH, is it really necessary to go non-commissioned OCdt anyway? What would it achieve in the long-term?
It is only taking weeks to do the IOT ocurse now, but the letter sent out to succesfuly candidates informs them the that they are APtl Off and OCdt VRT, until the completion of the IOT.
I have been told that the legal distinction for repsonsabilities is exactly the reason a move to Full OCDT VRT has not yet happened, it would require a tweak to the T&C’s, which is going on right now according to BADER, ro at least a review.
[quote=“chaz” post=5247][quote=“Gullon” post=5242] Whereas now due to the new ruling I am going on a camp to cranwell as a staff cadet Sgt. with the same camp com. its going to be weird. I’m probably not going to be of as much use.
[/quote]
That shouldn’t happen IMHO. If you are an Off Cdt in the UAS or OTC (or whatever the URNU have), you shouldn’t remain as a Cadet.
You make a valid point. Actually the OTC are probably better placed to offer assistance as SIs due to the nature of your training, and how it can be directly transferred to Cadets (as opposed to a UAS stude - just because he’s got budgie wings doesn’t mean he can teach a Cadet to fly!). 
How long does that take you?[/quote] It was a week long course, at the end you are assessed teaching a theory and a practical lesson. ( did mine on yaw, pitch and roll cheers ATC haha)
Had a look at QRs in a spare 5 mins today.
QR (RAF) state officers of honorary rank or an honorary commission cannot hold command, nothing about Officer Cadets.
QR (RN) state All Officers and ratings or other ranks in the RM can have command over subordinates.
Didn’t have time to look at QR (Army)
These were the only points along the lines mentioned. Just to add all RN officers are technically commissioned on joining. The commission is not confirmed until passing out. The title Officer Cadet is not a rank in the RN as all persons under training hold the rank of Midshipman or Sub Lieutenant but are referred to, on a local bases at BRNC, as Officer Cadet.
[quote=“Gullon” post=5284]
How long does that take you?[/quote] It was a week long course, at the end you are assessed teaching a theory and a practical lesson. ( did mine on yaw, pitch and roll cheers ATC haha)[/quote]
Interesting. Not something that is currently readily available to UAS students, although again due to the differing roles and syllabi, there’s probably a reason why.
Was it locally delivered or did you go on a “regular” cse?
In the case of a UAS Officer Cadet, they have certain privileges with respect to being treated as a Cadet Junior Officer, but effectively have the status and authority of an LAC/SAC.
It’s something I think the OTC trumps the UAS over, recognised and transferable skills courses which Gullon has obviously embarked upon. We can gain AT quals through JSAT courses but nothing along the lines of Force Development. Though in fairness it can be argued that UAS Officer Cadets don’t particularly need such qualifications that the OTC do since they’re focussed mostly on ground roles and we tend to go flyin-oh wait no…No, not at the moment…
If that! I think the vast majority of UAS students will readily accept the fact that since we don’t contribute much to the regular RAF at all (apart from the odd support role here and there), we consider ourselves below even LAC. I certainly do at least. The only difference is we get to bimble around in the Officers’ Mess, which is lovely but often met with steely glares from the ISS staff. I was interrogated in Linton’s Mess earlier today…I was even wearing my best polo shirt and some very nice chinos… 
[quote=“Stand Out” post=5314]
If that! I think the vast majority of UAS students will readily accept the fact that since we don’t contribute much to the regular RAF at all (apart from the odd support role here and there)…[/quote]
On the comparisons between OTC and UAS…although I’ve always believed that all UAS studes would have an equal eligibility to be ‘called out’ for MACP duties as is the case for OTC Officer Cadets (ie when shovelling sandbags/snow etc), I wondered whether there might have been some internal reg that only permitted 2nd year and older students to be involved in such public superhero activities, as sightings seem to be exceedingly-rare (even allowing for being outnumbered by the Army).
Smile sweetly, and let your entitled status, coupled with an endearing personal style, empower you on to the bacon+ brown toast. Flexibility is the key to air power…and the retention of contracts.
I wonder if ISS have even taken over the NAAFI EFI responsibilities out on deployments, too? Nice to think that some of the ‘steely glares’ might be possessed by a few SR-types, who could be RAFR rather than just being civ-only caterers. (probably more likely to be jaundiced PVRd ex-regs, thinking they’ve detected a hungry airman)
wilf_san
[quote]Gunner wrote:
…is it really necessary to go non-commissioned OCdt anyway? What would it achieve in the long-term? [/quote]
Come the BTI revolution this would be my solution:
- Selection via Wing P2 filter interview & OASC
- Appointment as Officer Cadet(ATC) on passing OASC, allowing supervisory responsibilities etc. - but under probabtion - for a minimum of 12 months
- OIC ASAP after probation period - commissioned as Plt Off RAFVR(T) on passing OIC.
This process would have several benefits:
-
It may help weed out the uniform hangers, as they are not immediately commissioned.
-
Developmental training and experience/opportunities could be put the way of the Officer Cadet to allow them to develop their experience and abilities as a potential Officer in uniform.
-
It could help to weed out the throbbers, as it would be a relatively simple process to get rid of an Officer Cadet(ATC) as opposed to a commissioned Officer if they do not come up to scratch during their probationary period. 12 months of Officer-type responsibilities, and holding someone to Officer standards (with periodic reviews/appraisals, e.g. quarterly), should be sufficient to determine whether they are right for the job.
These would be the long-term benefits …the ATC needs fewer - but better - Officers IMHO.
[quote]flago wrote:
Had a look at QRs in a spare 5 mins today.
QR (RAF) state officers of honorary rank or an honorary commission cannot hold command, nothing about Officer Cadets.[/quote]
Interesting - and curious.
[quote]chaz wrote:
In the case of a UAS Officer Cadet, they have certain privileges with respect to being treated as a Cadet Junior Officer, but effectively have the status and authority of an LAC/SAC.[/quote]
Chaz - whats the regulatory reference for this? I know what you say is 100% accurate but what regulations underpin it if its not in QRs(RAF) …is it in the Manual of Service Law (JSP830), or another AP/JSP? e.g. in the case of VR(UAS) Officer Cadets, is it in AP3392 Vol.7 Regulations for the Reserve Air Forces?
Cheers
BTI
Good question. I must admit although having spent a reasonable amount of time around the UAS system as a student and beyond, I’ve only ever seen it as a passing reference. It may be something as simple as UAS AIs, but probably not.
It’s a never ending battle. That said, if it becomes an issue, it’s something that the Sqn Staff should be made aware of, and sort via the PMC and Mess Mgr. Of course a few years down the line, you’ll probably find it’s the same mess staff when you come back as a Fg Off or Flt Lt!
As mentioned earlier in the thread, hopefully that is slowly changing with the full time FD team at Cranwell. Mind you, even the JSAT AT quals, both as leader and or instructor, can be very useful. Only 2 weeks ago a request went round for an instructor to aid a regular army unit winter exped. Could easily have been a UAS (or EFT) stude who plugged the gap.
Not to mention, who provided the 2nd flight of the Queen’s escort at the Bomber Command Memorial last year? The UAS system shouldn’t sell itself short.
Ok just came back from RAF Cranwell annual camp. I discussed my position with the staff there. I’m still not entirely sure what my options are once I time out in June. Does anyone know what I can do while I’m still an officer cadet in the OTC. Can I be a uniformed member of staff? Can I be a CI? or am I completely banned from the organisation? does anyone know what the regulations are? If I commission in the OTC does that change anything? I don’t really know where to start no one seems to know what the rules are.
As above…
You can be a CI. Once you commission it looks like you could be a CI or an SI. You could also be commissioned in the VRT and the TA, but not commissioned in one and not the other. Or you could do none of those things.