University unit "cadets" ineligible for appointment as Service Instructors

Adult Staff Execs
1

WEF 1 Feb 13…

[quote]P Letter 02-13 (1 Feb 13) wrote:

ACO PERSONNEL LETTER 02-13 –
INELIGIBILITY OF CADET MEMBERS OF UNIVERSITY CADET UNITS FROM BEING APPOINTED AS SERVICE INSTRUCTORS

Reference:

A. PI 601, Appointment of Service Instructors.
B. PI 501, Terms of Enrolment/Appointment and Conditions of Membership for ATC Cadets.

  1. Service Instructors (SI) were established to bring current Service experience to the unit that they are assisting. Following a query about the status of cadet members of university cadet units it is to be noted that these personnel are ineligible to be appointed as a SI in the ACO.

  2. A new paragraph will therefore be inserted in Reference A, as follows:

“4. Cadet members of university cadet units. Cadet members of a University Officer Training Corps Unit, University Royal Naval Unit and University Air Squadron are specifically excluded from being appointed as SIs. They may, however, continue as staff cadets on their ATC squadron until their 20th birthday when they can apply for Cadet Force Adult Volunteer (CFAV) service.”

Subsequent paragraphs will be re-numbered.

  1. Where a cadet member of a university cadet unit has already been appointed as a Service Helper or Service Instructor prior to 1 Feb 13, they are permitted to re-join their ATC squadron as a staff cadet until their 20th birthday, in accordance with the provisions of Reference B, paragraph 2.

  2. The point of contact at HQ ACO is SO3 Safeguarding
    [/quote]

Question 1 - why would they be ineligible for appointment as an SI (from a regulations/legislation POV)?

Question 2 - why (yet again!) have we got an ACO policy which immediately contradicts both a JSP(814)and an AP(1919)?

[quote]JSP814 Policy & Regulations for MOD sponsored Cadet Forces wrote:

Chapter 5 – Eligibility & conditions of membership for cadets

5.1.3. Reserve Forces. Cadets cannot also serve simultaneously as adult members of a Reserve forces.

5.5.2. Termination. A cadet will cease to be a member of the CF in any of the following circumstances:

c. When joining the Armed Forces for full-time service.

d. When joining the Reserve Forces.
[/quote]

[quote]AP1919 Regulations for the Air Training Corps wrote:

Chapter 4 – Cadet membership

  1. Reserve Forces. An ATC cadet cannot also serve as an adult member of a Reserve Force.
    [/quote]

So …since (for example) a “cadet” member of a University Air Squadron is either:

a. An attested RAFVR Officer Cadet
b. An RAFVR Acting Pilot Officer
c. An RAF Officer Cadet with a Bursary or Cadetship

…JSP814 and AP1919 are very clear - ATC cadets cannot be members of a Reserve Force, or a member of the Armed Forces (although JSP814 5.5.5© muddies the waters).

To make matters worse - PI501 is contradictory on the issue, and (again) contradicts JSP814 and AP1919…

[quote]PI501 Terms of appointment & conditions of service for ATC cadets wrote:

  1. Membership of other organisations and cadet forces. Cadets are permitted to be members of more than one organisation (eg cadet force or University Air Squadron) at the same time, providing the commanding officers of the units are aware, agree and that this is not at the expense of young people on a waiting list.

  2. Circumstances in which individuals cease to be cadet members of the ATC. An individual will cease to be a cadet member of the ATC in any of the following circumstances:

c. When joining the Armed Forces, or their Reserves or Auxiliaries.[/quote]

…this is a ridiculous situation. Any member of a University “cadet” unit is either a member of the Reserve Forces, or is a member of the regular Armed Forces, and IAW with JSP814 and AP1919 (which trump an HQAC P Letter) is therefore unable to serve as an ATC Staff Cadet - however - according to P Letter 02-13 they are also ineligible to become Service Instructors!

Sort this mess out please HQAC!!

Cheers
BTI

2

Send it back up the chain and query it.

3

Probably because someone has actually realised that despite their technical status as reserves, the UOTC, URNU and UAS are basically uniformed drinking clubs?

4

I’d never want an URNU or UAS OCdt as an SI on my unit!

a. they’re immature uni students
b. they should be off enjoying being immature uni students

5

you say that as if their “service experience” in that role would not be benefitted by an ATC unit!

6

[quote=“bti” post=4685]WEF 1 Feb 13…

[quote]P Letter 02-13 (1 Feb 13) wrote:

ACO PERSONNEL LETTER 02-13 –
INELIGIBILITY OF CADET MEMBERS OF UNIVERSITY CADET UNITS FROM BEING APPOINTED AS SERVICE INSTRUCTORS

Reference:

A. PI 601, Appointment of Service Instructors.
B. PI 501, Terms of Enrolment/Appointment and Conditions of Membership for ATC Cadets.

  1. Service Instructors (SI) were established to bring current Service experience to the unit that they are assisting. Following a query about the status of cadet members of university cadet units it is to be noted that these personnel are ineligible to be appointed as a SI in the ACO.

  2. A new paragraph will therefore be inserted in Reference A, as follows:

“4. Cadet members of university cadet units. Cadet members of a University Officer Training Corps Unit, University Royal Naval Unit and University Air Squadron are specifically excluded from being appointed as SIs. They may, however, continue as staff cadets on their ATC squadron until their 20th birthday when they can apply for Cadet Force Adult Volunteer (CFAV) service.”

Subsequent paragraphs will be re-numbered.

  1. Where a cadet member of a university cadet unit has already been appointed as a Service Helper or Service Instructor prior to 1 Feb 13, they are permitted to re-join their ATC squadron as a staff cadet until their 20th birthday, in accordance with the provisions of Reference B, paragraph 2.

  2. The point of contact at HQ ACO is SO3 Safeguarding
    [/quote]

Question 1 - why would they be ineligible for appointment as an SI (from a regulations/legislation POV)?

Question 2 - why (yet again!) have we got an ACO policy which immediately contradicts both a JSP(814)and an AP(1919)?

[quote]JSP814 Policy & Regulations for MOD sponsored Cadet Forces wrote:

Chapter 5 – Eligibility & conditions of membership for cadets

5.1.3. Reserve Forces. Cadets cannot also serve simultaneously as adult members of a Reserve forces.

5.5.2. Termination. A cadet will cease to be a member of the CF in any of the following circumstances:

c. When joining the Armed Forces for full-time service.

d. When joining the Reserve Forces.
[/quote]

[quote]AP1919 Regulations for the Air Training Corps wrote:

Chapter 4 – Cadet membership

  1. Reserve Forces. An ATC cadet cannot also serve as an adult member of a Reserve Force.
    [/quote]

So …since (for example) a “cadet” member of a University Air Squadron is either:

a. An attested RAFVR Officer Cadet
b. An RAFVR Acting Pilot Officer
c. An RAF Officer Cadet with a Bursary or Cadetship

…JSP814 and AP1919 are very clear - ATC cadets cannot be members of a Reserve Force, or a member of the Armed Forces (although JSP814 5.5.5© muddies the waters).

To make matters worse - PI501 is contradictory on the issue, and (again) contradicts JSP814 and AP1919…

[quote]PI501 Terms of appointment & conditions of service for ATC cadets wrote:

  1. Membership of other organisations and cadet forces. Cadets are permitted to be members of more than one organisation (eg cadet force or University Air Squadron) at the same time, providing the commanding officers of the units are aware, agree and that this is not at the expense of young people on a waiting list.

  2. Circumstances in which individuals cease to be cadet members of the ATC. An individual will cease to be a cadet member of the ATC in any of the following circumstances:

c. When joining the Armed Forces, or their Reserves or Auxiliaries.[/quote]

…this is a ridiculous situation. Any member of a University “cadet” unit is either a member of the Reserve Forces, or is a member of the regular Armed Forces, and IAW with JSP814 and AP1919 (which trump an HQAC P Letter) is therefore unable to serve as an ATC Staff Cadet - however - according to P Letter 02-13 they are also ineligible to become Service Instructors!

Sort this mess out please HQAC!!

Cheers
BTI[/quote]

This is interesting as two of our Staff NCOs will be going to university soon and one at least is joining the UAS. I agree with your points and it is just HQAC sillyness. Personally, I think that they should be allowed to be service instructors subject to agreement by both commanding officers. However there one point to note that would potentially cause issues - Saluting.

RAFVR(T) OCdts - Saluted
RAF OCdts (both RAFVR and RAF on Bursary/Scholarship) - Not Saluted (as far as I know)
RAFVR Acting Pilot Officer - Saluted (I believe)

7

[quote=“Leeroy” post=4688]I’d never want an URNU or UAS OCdt as an SI on my unit!

a. they’re immature uni students
b. they should be off enjoying being immature uni students[/quote]
Absolutely.

If we were going to permit them on sqns as SI’s given that will invariably be under 20, they could be younger than existing staff cadets and potentially create all manner of problems, and maybe present a dichotomy in terms of status within the organisation. Just because they are on OTC/UAS which as said are to all intents university clubs they aren’t going present as anymore ‘mature’ than our own 18/19 year olds or even staff just over 20.

If we were going to have this, then it would be the right time to re-write the Corps’ rules and ditch cadet service at 18 and introduce CI from 18.

8

you say that as if their “service experience” in that role would not be benefitted by an ATC unit![/quote]

Problem is, being students they can rarely afford to get a round in, and I’m too old to drink in the student union!!

9

you say that as if their “service experience” in that role would not be benefitted by an ATC unit![/quote]

Problem is, being students they can rarely afford to get a round in, and I’m too old to drink in the student union!![/quote]

You’re as old as the student you feel. Anyway, in my experience, when presented with mess prices, most students are very keen to stand their rounds, as it’s likely the first time in their lives they can!

10

How silly.

Evidently nobody read JSP 814 before writing this!

11

How often do they refer to anything before writing - and issuing - their silly diktats?

12

Clearly when it refers to cadet membership ceasing on joining the ‘reserve forces’ what they really mean is that one cannot be a cadet AND a member of the Augies, TA, RNR, or RMR…

Whilst technically UAS fall under the umbrella of reserve forces (don’t know about OTC or ‘RN whatsit’) they’re not really ‘reservists’…they’re kids at Uni.

Now that’s not to say that they can’t still give to the ATC…

Personally, I don’t see an issue with naming them seperately from regular service instructors. There is often a world of difference.

13

Trying not to post on the internet at the moment, but oh well…

You have to be twenty to be appointed as a service instructor anyway, regardless of where from, so that kills a lot of the thoughts here stone dead. Any SI from UAS, UOTC or URNU would have to be of age to join as CFAV anyway, same as any SI from any other part of the regular or reserve forces. Pretty sure this was introduced to avoid a situation where you could have SIs easily the same age or younger than cadets. I’ve seen this happen first hand, it caused nightmares for everyone in the end.

What makes an ‘immature uni student’ who happens to be UAS any less suitable for the job than an ‘immature uni student’ who happens to be VRT or SNCO(ATC)? Seen that happen plenty of times too.

I read this as being aimed at stopping the practice I have no doubt is going on all over the place, where Cadet X turns eighteen, heads off to the University of Someplace to read Basket Weaving and joins the UAS, but still wants to hang out with his cadet friends in the holidays (and show off to them how awesome and grown up he is now), so is allowed to rock up at his old unit as a ‘service instructor’. Seen that tried a couple of times too.

14

The ones that read Yoghurt Knitting are worse.

15

[quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=4702]Clearly when it refers to cadet membership ceasing on joining the ‘reserve forces’ what they really mean is that one cannot be a cadet AND a member of the Augies, TA, RNR, or RMR…

Whilst technically UAS fall under the umbrella of reserve forces (don’t know about OTC or ‘RN whatsit’) they’re not really ‘reservists’…they’re kids at Uni.

[/quote]

I understand your point however, UOTC, UAS and URNU are reservists, just like VRT are.

If they had just enforced the ‘must be 20’ age rule then fair enough, there is no need to confuse things by making up a new status for those who are in University Units.

16

Yes URNU\OTC\UAS are similar to VR(T) but they are not equal to THE Reserves.

This is the line they have draw.

Even then URNU are honorary midshipman RNR, not Reservists. OTC as Second Lt TA(B ) where as THE Reservists are TA(A) commissions. The UAS the majority are Officer Cadets, they have the privilege of Officers but are not Officers so are not the same as Reservists, very few become APlt Off that is a blurring of the lines but still UAS.

URNU/OTC/UAS sit under the Reservist umbrella the same as the Cadet Forces (Staff and Cadets) that does not make them reserves.

I fully understand the decision. It may be annoying for you but focus on University, enjoy it. Then come back to the Cadet Forces. Life changes and time away makes you have a fresher view of things.

17

[quote=“40b” post=4715][quote=“wdimagineer2b” post=4702]Clearly when it refers to cadet membership ceasing on joining the ‘reserve forces’ what they really mean is that one cannot be a cadet AND a member of the Augies, TA, RNR, or RMR…

Whilst technically UAS fall under the umbrella of reserve forces (don’t know about OTC or ‘RN whatsit’) they’re not really ‘reservists’…they’re kids at Uni.

[/quote]

I understand your point however, UOTC, UAS and URNU are reservists, just like VRT are.

If they had just enforced the ‘must be 20’ age rule then fair enough, there is no need to confuse things by making up a new status for those who are in University Units.[/quote]Surely the point of the ruling is that they’re stating that UAS, etc are allowed to remain as cadets, whereas under-18 RAuxAF, etc personnel wouldn’t be able to.

18

[quote]MattB wrote:
Surely the point of the ruling is that they’re stating that UAS, etc are allowed to remain as cadets, whereas under-18 RAuxAF, etc personnel wouldn’t be able to[/quote]

Exactly …despite personal opinions as to what constitues a “reservist”, legally (and that is what the policy should be based on) there is no doubt whatsoever - all members of URNU/OTC/UAS are reservists within the meaning of the Reserve Forces Act 1996.

How many times has this discussion been had on ACC? It doesn’t matter one jot what people think as individuals, the law is the law.

RAFVR(UAS) have exactly the same legal status as RAFVR(T) - so why not apply the same rule? i.e. that they cannot become an SI until age 20, and then follow the existing procedure in PI601 …why complicate the matter, contradict your own governing regulations, and (in my opinion) devalue the UAS branch of the RAFVR (not to mention the other services)?

[quote]FlagO wrote:
Even then URNU are honorary midshipman RNR, not Reservists. OTC as Second Lt TA(List b) where as THE Reservists are TA(List A) commissions. The UAS the majority are Officer Cadets, they have the privilege of Officers but are not Officers so are not the same as Reservists, very few become APlt Off that is a blurring of the lines but still UAS[/quote]

Can’t comment on the URNU/RNR situation, as I don’t know enough about it - however - OTC TA(List b) Officer Cadets have exactly the same status RAFVR(UAS) Officer Cadets, and a OTC TA(List b) 2Lt holds the Queens Commission as does a TA(List b) ACF Officer; no difference. UAS A/Plt Off’s are again - commissioned officers in the RAFVR(UAS) branch. Just because someone is UAS or OTC (or URNU for that matter) does not “not make them a reservist”. There is no blurring of the lines whatsoever.

Just because someone does not have a call out liability does not “not make them a reservist” …how many times has this debate been raked over and the argument proven? :?

So - given that one can become and RAFVR(T) Officer at age 20, why can an RAFVR(UAS) Officer Cadet or A/Plt Off not become an SI at age 20? …it simply doesn’t make sense, and is contrary to our own regulations (AP1919) not to mention JSP814.

In response to those who wouldn’t want an URNU/OTC/UAS type as an SI …there is a simple answer - say no - but say no based on your knowledge of the individual and their personal qualities, not on a prejudice.

Rant off.

Cheers
BTI

19

OK, so the policy directives are contradictory, but Is it not the purpose of Service Instructors to bring certain skills and experience to the cadet forces that existing staff members may not have? If that is indeed the case, then it could be argued that as UAS cadets’ training is focussed on getting those destined for aircrew through their basic flying syllabus they have limited extra skills and little experience to offer (save drinking). Those destined for other professions in the RAF get virtually no training in their specialisations although I know that OTC cadets receive basic soldiering training so they could help with elements of field craft, but that would be about it. I know nothing of what the URNU does.

I realise this will be controversial, but what can a UAS cadet actually do for the benefit of the cadets on your Sqn? As has been mentioned before, I think quite a few want to come back to meet their old mates and well, show off!

20

The other thing to consider here is that the officer cadets in University units are just that: officer cadets and so technically under phase one training as far as the system is concerned. You wouldn’t have an AC going through Halton as an SI, would you?