Your reasoning is sound BTI, as PAM21 also forbids Officer Cadets to plan and conduct ranges (despite having passed their RCO course) until commissioned.
As for why VR(T) Officer Cadets are still being commissioned upon appointment, you could also be spot-on. If a CI or SNCO gained a range qual and then went on to be commissioned, they would have their qual suspended if they had to go down the same route as a regular officer cadet.
That said, I don’t see how your last paragraph would work and TBH, is it really necessary to go non-commissioned OCdt anyway? What would it achieve in the long-term?
It is only taking weeks to do the IOT ocurse now, but the letter sent out to succesfuly candidates informs them the that they are APtl Off and OCdt VRT, until the completion of the IOT.
I have been told that the legal distinction for repsonsabilities is exactly the reason a move to Full OCDT VRT has not yet happened, it would require a tweak to the T&C’s, which is going on right now according to BADER, ro at least a review.
[quote=“chaz” post=5247][quote=“Gullon” post=5242] Whereas now due to the new ruling I am going on a camp to cranwell as a staff cadet Sgt. with the same camp com. its going to be weird. I’m probably not going to be of as much use.
[/quote]
That shouldn’t happen IMHO. If you are an Off Cdt in the UAS or OTC (or whatever the URNU have), you shouldn’t remain as a Cadet.
You make a valid point. Actually the OTC are probably better placed to offer assistance as SIs due to the nature of your training, and how it can be directly transferred to Cadets (as opposed to a UAS stude - just because he’s got budgie wings doesn’t mean he can teach a Cadet to fly!).
How long does that take you?[/quote] It was a week long course, at the end you are assessed teaching a theory and a practical lesson. ( did mine on yaw, pitch and roll cheers ATC haha)
QR (RAF) state officers of honorary rank or an honorary commission cannot hold command, nothing about Officer Cadets.
QR (RN) state All Officers and ratings or other ranks in the RM can have command over subordinates.
Didn’t have time to look at QR (Army)
These were the only points along the lines mentioned. Just to add all RN officers are technically commissioned on joining. The commission is not confirmed until passing out. The title Officer Cadet is not a rank in the RN as all persons under training hold the rank of Midshipman or Sub Lieutenant but are referred to, on a local bases at BRNC, as Officer Cadet.
How long does that take you?[/quote] It was a week long course, at the end you are assessed teaching a theory and a practical lesson. ( did mine on yaw, pitch and roll cheers ATC haha)[/quote]
Interesting. Not something that is currently readily available to UAS students, although again due to the differing roles and syllabi, there’s probably a reason why.
Was it locally delivered or did you go on a “regular” cse?
In the case of a UAS Officer Cadet, they have certain privileges with respect to being treated as a Cadet Junior Officer, but effectively have the status and authority of an LAC/SAC.
It’s something I think the OTC trumps the UAS over, recognised and transferable skills courses which Gullon has obviously embarked upon. We can gain AT quals through JSAT courses but nothing along the lines of Force Development. Though in fairness it can be argued that UAS Officer Cadets don’t particularly need such qualifications that the OTC do since they’re focussed mostly on ground roles and we tend to go flyin-oh wait no…No, not at the moment…
If that! I think the vast majority of UAS students will readily accept the fact that since we don’t contribute much to the regular RAF at all (apart from the odd support role here and there), we consider ourselves below even LAC. I certainly do at least. The only difference is we get to bimble around in the Officers’ Mess, which is lovely but often met with steely glares from the ISS staff. I was interrogated in Linton’s Mess earlier today…I was even wearing my best polo shirt and some very nice chinos…
[quote=“Stand Out” post=5314]
If that! I think the vast majority of UAS students will readily accept the fact that since we don’t contribute much to the regular RAF at all (apart from the odd support role here and there)…[/quote]
On the comparisons between OTC and UAS…although I’ve always believed that all UAS studes would have an equal eligibility to be ‘called out’ for MACP duties as is the case for OTC Officer Cadets (ie when shovelling sandbags/snow etc), I wondered whether there might have been some internal reg that only permitted 2nd year and older students to be involved in such public superhero activities, as sightings seem to be exceedingly-rare (even allowing for being outnumbered by the Army).
Smile sweetly, and let your entitled status, coupled with an endearing personal style, empower you on to the bacon+ brown toast. Flexibility is the key to air power…and the retention of contracts.
I wonder if ISS have even taken over the NAAFI EFI responsibilities out on deployments, too? Nice to think that some of the ‘steely glares’ might be possessed by a few SR-types, who could be RAFR rather than just being civ-only caterers. (probably more likely to be jaundiced PVRd ex-regs, thinking they’ve detected a hungry airman)
[quote]Gunner wrote:
…is it really necessary to go non-commissioned OCdt anyway? What would it achieve in the long-term? [/quote]
Come the BTI revolution this would be my solution:
Selection via Wing P2 filter interview & OASC
Appointment as Officer Cadet(ATC) on passing OASC, allowing supervisory responsibilities etc. - but under probabtion - for a minimum of 12 months
OIC ASAP after probation period - commissioned as Plt Off RAFVR(T) on passing OIC.
This process would have several benefits:
It may help weed out the uniform hangers, as they are not immediately commissioned.
Developmental training and experience/opportunities could be put the way of the Officer Cadet to allow them to develop their experience and abilities as a potential Officer in uniform.
It could help to weed out the throbbers, as it would be a relatively simple process to get rid of an Officer Cadet(ATC) as opposed to a commissioned Officer if they do not come up to scratch during their probationary period. 12 months of Officer-type responsibilities, and holding someone to Officer standards (with periodic reviews/appraisals, e.g. quarterly), should be sufficient to determine whether they are right for the job.
These would be the long-term benefits …the ATC needs fewer - but better - Officers IMHO.
[quote]flago wrote:
Had a look at QRs in a spare 5 mins today.
QR (RAF) state officers of honorary rank or an honorary commission cannot hold command, nothing about Officer Cadets.[/quote]
Interesting - and curious.
[quote]chaz wrote:
In the case of a UAS Officer Cadet, they have certain privileges with respect to being treated as a Cadet Junior Officer, but effectively have the status and authority of an LAC/SAC.[/quote]
Chaz - whats the regulatory reference for this? I know what you say is 100% accurate but what regulations underpin it if its not in QRs(RAF) …is it in the Manual of Service Law (JSP830), or another AP/JSP? e.g. in the case of VR(UAS) Officer Cadets, is it in AP3392 Vol.7 Regulations for the Reserve Air Forces?
Good question. I must admit although having spent a reasonable amount of time around the UAS system as a student and beyond, I’ve only ever seen it as a passing reference. It may be something as simple as UAS AIs, but probably not.
It’s a never ending battle. That said, if it becomes an issue, it’s something that the Sqn Staff should be made aware of, and sort via the PMC and Mess Mgr. Of course a few years down the line, you’ll probably find it’s the same mess staff when you come back as a Fg Off or Flt Lt!
As mentioned earlier in the thread, hopefully that is slowly changing with the full time FD team at Cranwell. Mind you, even the JSAT AT quals, both as leader and or instructor, can be very useful. Only 2 weeks ago a request went round for an instructor to aid a regular army unit winter exped. Could easily have been a UAS (or EFT) stude who plugged the gap.
Not to mention, who provided the 2nd flight of the Queen’s escort at the Bomber Command Memorial last year? The UAS system shouldn’t sell itself short.
Ok just came back from RAF Cranwell annual camp. I discussed my position with the staff there. I’m still not entirely sure what my options are once I time out in June. Does anyone know what I can do while I’m still an officer cadet in the OTC. Can I be a uniformed member of staff? Can I be a CI? or am I completely banned from the organisation? does anyone know what the regulations are? If I commission in the OTC does that change anything? I don’t really know where to start no one seems to know what the rules are.
You can be a CI. Once you commission it looks like you could be a CI or an SI. You could also be commissioned in the VRT and the TA, but not commissioned in one and not the other. Or you could do none of those things.
[quote]Gullon wrote:
Ok just came back from RAF Cranwell annual camp[/quote]
Interesting - in what capacity did you attend? Were you permitted to attend as an unofficial SI (in other words, was a blind eye turned to P Letter 02-13), or did you revert to Cdt Sgt as previously discussed?
Point your staff in the direction of P Letter 02-13 (on Sharepoint), and the latest version of PI601 (attached to P Letter 08-12, also on Sharepoint).
However, as tango_lima has correctly advised, your options on reaching age 20 are:
If Officer Cadet - applying for CI or SNCO(ATC) service (however, although regulations do not prevent SNCO service on paper, this may not be seen as being appropriate for an Officer Cadet). ACAI222 refers for CI, ACAI223 refers for SNCO (both in ACP20B).
If commissioned within the OTC (TA List B?) - CI or SI (PI601 refers) is now an option for you, as is VR(T) service (ACAI221, ACP20B).
We had a cadet join the URNR. Until the P Letter came out, I refused to see him as a Commissioned Officer. He insisted he was to be saluted as an Officer. I politely (as a CI) asked him to provide evidence he is commissioned.
P Letter came out. I politely (as a CI) showed him. We now treat him as a CI, although he cannot order an NCO to do something as he is 19.
[quote=“FS Sarnie” post=5672]We had a cadet join the URNR. Until the P Letter came out, I refused to see him as a Commissioned Officer. He insisted he was to be saluted as an Officer. I politely (as a CI) asked him to provide evidence he is commissioned.
P Letter came out. I politely (as a CI) showed him. We now treat him as a CI, although he cannot order an NCO to do something as he is 19.[/quote]
But he should be getting treated as a Staff Cadet…
Did he just start rocking up dressed in a sailor suit once he joined the URNU? Was any sort of paperwork, etc, done? Is he attending in navy uniform now, being treated as a CI and actually a Staff Cadet on paper? I’m confused.
What about the bloke mentioned earlier? CI but attending in uniform and being treated as his reservist self while not telling his reserve unit?
Whatever the “flavour” of outside ATC life… is it that hard to grasp that if you are appointed a CI, you act as a CI, if you are appointed as uniformed staff, you act as uniformed staff, if you are a cadet then you bloody well act as a cadet.
This multi hatting rubbish GMG and is patently wrong!
Sorry, I seem to be posting far too much lately, but this thought occurred to me while I was shaving this morning:
How many supposed ‘service instructors’ are there out there who have never actually undergone any real appointment? ie: they’re individuals who are in the armed forces and turn up at the ATC squadron occasionally to help out, but aren’t technically on the books as ‘staff’.
It’s pretty obvious that the whole point of having a process for appointing service instructors is to avoid the above, but I’ve got a hunch it’s happening all over the place. A couple of the posts on this thread seem to be from people who claim to have met (or be) ‘service instructors’ who, according to the rules (and if following the appointment process properly), can’t be.
Quite possibly a few as the new process has only recently been established.
Before it was a letter from your OC to the OC Wing saying this is the conditions of your attendance and they are happy for them to assist. This then went in to a file at wing with a CRB and that was it. It was official but as far as I am aware it stayed at wing level.
The new system is more defined, I feel still needs refining. It leads to recording on Bader and I believe HQAC receive the documentation.
The difficulty for some is the irregularity in which they attend and the frequency in which they move around. Plus the process is bias to the RAF, understandably, but t makes it a bit more drawn out to complete for the RN and Army. Not at the fault of the ACO but due to the position of a SI being in RAF APs, ACPs, ACTAIs and GAIs and not JSPs or DINs.
oh yes it is a pain! Iam on bader but only had the letter from my first OC which was a number of years ago. I do check with my OC everytime I move but have no idea where I stand on legal or insurance point of view as about 95% is done on leave. The Army has no (to my knowledge) equiv of the RAF/ACO APs/ACPs/ACTAIs or GAIs and trust me have looked into it
As for the OC I am on my 10th in 2 years. How many of them knew I worked with the ACO? I would take a stab at less than 50% it was the 3rd one that wrote the letter and since then its say in my file.
this would be my solution: