Sorry if this has been asked before I am on my phone and couldn’t find anything on the search.
I am currently an instructor writhin the ACF and looking to transfer over to the ATC,
Really looking to know if it is a case of completely resigning from the ACF and joining the ATC from scratch. or if there is a way to transfer over directly? It is within the same RFCA but not sure if that matters.
Also as I am currently an SI within the ACF, would I be required to go and do another weeks training course or does my course pass within the ACF count? (Providing I go back into uniform)
Anyone with experience above that could help would be greatly appreciated, I can only find information for transfers between ACF counties and ACF-CCF transfers on our Westminster system.
Yes, I think it is possible and is in JSP 814 which in theory covers all of us - but the reality is that each CF has its own ways of working. I suspect that you will have to join the ATC from scratch and yes, you would be required to complete training at the Adult Training Facility if you go down the uniformed route within the ATC.
JSP 814 Policy and Regulations for MOD Sponsored Cadet Forces:
[quote]f. Transfers. Applications for transfers are to be initiated by the Commanding
Officer of the unit which the CFAV is leaving. They are also subject to the approval of
the Commanding Officer of the receiving unit. CFAVs may transfer to another cadet
force of their Service with the agreement of the receiving cadet force authority.
However, provided the relevant authorities approve, it is permitted for an CFAV to do
duty with both CF within a Service.[/quote]
tasty tucker, soft beds and a uniform so smart it’s got a PhD from Cambridge… no other reason required :lol:
In reality though i left the ATC as a cadet 4 years ago and decided to get some experience of another cadet organization, now i feel its time to return
Having a brain fart day… i dont get what you mean?[/quote]
i was noting the widespread - even within the RAF - belief that the RAF uniform is a nasty looking cheap thing that looks like its been given to a security guard at Tesco’s. hence my disbelief that anyone might, however tonge-in-cheek, suggest moving service to the RAF in order to enjoy the sartorial elegance of its uniform…
on the substance of your post, re transfering, if i were you i’d hold off until the results of the spectacular u-turn over the status of SNCO (ATC) are clear. fall out might be significant, and the ACO isn’t exactly in a good place to start with. to be clear, i applaud you for going away, getting some outside experience and perspective, and returning with skills and opened eyes, but the last four years have not (imv) been kind to the ACO, and ‘flux’ would be a very charitable description of the ACO’s state right now…
observe from across the water, and when things have started to settle make an informed decision.
Haha just a silly blackadder quote. Although after wearing MTP and DPM for the past few years it will nice to actually feel smart for once and not look like a sack of potatoes… Despite the jumpers that itch and get holes the second you open the packet and trousers that shine more than the sun when an iron is put anywhere near them.
Thank you for your honest opinion though,dependent on whether i actually transfer directly across or have to apply to join from fresh i am not yet decided what route to take either stay as a CI (after the probation period) or move back onto uniformed staff either as an SNCO or down the commissioned route. Until i sit down and find out what the reality is i can decide from then.
If you could shed some light on what the changes are in process at the moment for SNCO’s (or point me in the right direction to find out) i would be very interested.
christ alone knows - there was a plan to absorb all SNCO(ATC) into the RAFVR(T), staying at their current ranks but moving them from ‘civvies in uniform’ to reservists with no call out liability. this was broadly welcomed. however a FOI request has revealed that this is now not going ahead as there has been a tri-service decision to do something else regarding CFAV’s on a whole CF basis. what that is is a matter for some debate, and lets be honest, even if HQAC would/could tell you the plan, HQAC’s plans or understanding of other peoples plans don’t have a stellar success rate…
you’ll note that this is public after an FOI request, not HQAC telling anyone about a change of plan everyone was under the impression was progressing nicely. a hurried briefing process is apparently underway, but its going from HQAC through RHQ’s to WHQ’s and finally to Sqn’s, so expect about 900 different versions. why not just send an email to all OC’s from HQAC is a mystery…
there’s still almost no flying while the RAF takes 3 years to decide whether an aircraft with no engine or avionics is airworthy (oddly, it was able to determine that a 50 year old RC-135 with four engines and enough electronics onboard to cook every bird within 30 miles was airworthy in less than 6 months…), and changes to the rules on transporting weapons and anmmunition have put a hole (ha! geddit???) in shooting.
unless you’re currently serving in the Iraqi Army somewhere north of Baghdad, you’ll be dissapointed.
Frankly looking at the ACO vs ACF I’ve become to think that the ACO is losing its focus which for me mirrors the RAF. The ACF has it’s soldier playing which mirrors its parent service. The ACO has been increasingly trying to do a bit of everything which has made the ACO a confusing place to be. It’s all well and good offering a diverse range of things to do, but they need to be fully resourced in all aspects from ‘the top’ and not as happens relying on scrounging and going cap in hand. All that has happened is that the ACO feels like a hybrid of the ACF and Scoutng.
As mentioned the Corps’ gliders have been grounded for over a year and only pie in the sky / aerial date plucking promises in terms of a full return which for my money are based more on fantasy than fact and reduced powered flying, although subject to factors even more out of the ACO’s control, there seems a lack of will to look at alternatives as we delude oursleves we our flying training has some military basis. Shooting has becoome almost a postcode lottery and FMS is still evolving but at the end of the day we’ll still be getting scraps in terms of kitting and like shooting a bit of a lottery in terms of what you can do. Then we have the wonderful online syllabus training which has been a masterclass in inappropriate resource, usage and software project mismangement.
I would give it a bit more time before transferring and see if the ACO rediscovers its identity as youth organisation with aviation very much at it’s core, with other things to do, rather than other things to do as its focus and aviation as peripheral subject. We get regular missives about putting Air back into the Air Cadets and which are no more atypical empty management rhetoric, because they either can’t or lack the will to make it happen.
I don’t know if the ACF has been subjected to the long term vision projects that the ACO has been, that seem to be big on idea and bluster but short on delivery and seem to be an exercise making it look like our SLT have a purpose.
As I say I don’t know if the ACF has anything similar and how they work out.
As I said a little while ago, I feel the ACO is at a crossroads and how our leaders manage this will dictate if the ACO will exist in years to come.
i’m less concerned/upset by the lack of flying as i am by the by the lack of effort to find something to replace it.
while i do beleive that flying is the ACO’s USP and something that is hugely popular and a big draw to the organisation, in my view the biggest draw is the variety of activity and the regularity with which that activity takes place. taking flying and a large part of shooting out of the average cadets annual programme and putting nothing in its place has been pretty catastrophic for retention, added to which the lack of camp places - as a cadet, 25 years ago (god that makes me feel old…) pretty much my entire Sqn of 30 cadets would go to camp every year, in my last Sqn we were offered 7 cadet places for a Sqn of 45.
if flying is off the menu - and i don’t care for what reason, all that matters is whether its available or not - then the ACO needs to grip it and do something else with the money. one wonders what sticking £20m in the AT budget would achieve…?
The lack of effort to replace flying IMO is largely due to the inability to look at anything other than military.
Not so many years ago we had opportunity flights offered by airlines, but for IIRC solely admin reasons they stopped. I had several cadets go on these and while only short internal UK flights, they loved them and came back full of it. I can’t believe that all of the internal flights in the UK are full and surely, if loss of revenue was a problem, some negotiation between the ACO and airlines with some money towards flights for cadets could provide more opportunities and a day out to boot. I can’t believe that an airline wouldn’t take a reduced amount of money for a seat, rather than fly empty.
But this sort of thing require initiative and imagination, not qualities I particularly associate with our Ivory Towers.
[quote=“Intruder” post=25353]tasty tucker, soft beds and a uniform so smart it’s got a PhD from Cambridge… no other reason required :lol:
[/quote]
I’m afraid the Royal Flying Corps was part of the Army.
Not really to be honest. Work has gone in recently to improve and modernise the syllabus and it is currently under review, but I believe the main concern is making sure it still fits in with the changes in ages we have had over the years.
[quote=“talon” post=25374][quote=“Intruder” post=25353]tasty tucker, soft beds and a uniform so smart it’s got a PhD from Cambridge… no other reason required :lol:
[/quote]
I’m afraid the Royal Flying Corps was part of the Army. [/quote]
I know but it was a comment that i could not resist
GHE - The problem i have noticed with the ACF is they are sometimes far too much focused on our “core” subjects of military training. Most of my best memories that stuck with me are the ones where we went and did something new and different, most of them not in uniform and completely unrelated to the ATC. Something that ive found the ACF does lack in…
The ATC may have moved away from its core USP whilst its waiting for the RAF/HQAC to get its act together but i hope to god it hasn’t lost its ability to adapt at ground level and be able to give the cadets the same opportunities that i got. That is the main pull i have to come back.
As lets face facts, in the 4 years i have been away, from the posts i have read, it doesn’t seem the ATC has changed that much, the ivory towers are still doing there same old stuff (i still remember the ACP16 fiasco, the LASER review and the Bader introduction to name but a few)
the people at Sqn level are as good as ever. the initiative, the enthusiasm, the curiosity, the willingness to beg, borrow or steal to get the cadets a new experience, and the refusal to take ‘we’ve not done that before’ as a reason to not try something is still there.
however, whats also there is, imho, an almost venal, jealous need within HQAC/RHQ’s/WHQ’s to control and to probhibit.
my understanding of the ACF - and my experience doesn’t go much beyond having them do visits to my units and having ACF people stay in the mess - is that the individual ACF detachment is much more obviously part of a larger formation, and that the higher formations (Coy/Bn) are much more involved in the day to day running of a det. the deal being that while the Coy/Bn sticks its nose in, it also provides the overwhelming majority of the weekend/away activities.
in the ACO - and while this has been going on for perhaps 15 years or so, i take the veiw that it has massively accelerated in the last 5/6 years - WHQ/RHQ/HQAC have got stuck in with gusto over the day-to-day running of units and what cadets can and cannot do, they’ve not budged an inch on providing activities.
you might get one WHQ/RHQ organised activity a year, but you’ll get a ‘no’ every day of the week.
Sort of true. We are very much a part of our county/company and pretty much all camps will be run by company or county with all the associated units (or parts thereof) attending. I have only done one weekend as a single detachment since I have been an instructor. 90% of senior cadet training will be done at company or county level. We are mostly autonomous in the day to day running of the unit and a good coy or cty won’t stick their nose in too much. I am of the opinion that every unit is different and must be run as such. Once or twice someone has tried to make multiple units do the same thing at the same time, but it has always ended in tears.
What you can do as a unit is really only limited by your staff and imagination, and my unit has been recognised as being one of the best in the county. I have noticed that ATC squadrons tend to have many more staff than the average ACF detachment which no doubt makes organising activities as a squadron much easier. Until recently I spent several years running the detachment with only two staff members, myself included, on the books.
The topic has gone off subject so will stick to the original questions
qualifications
those held which are NGBs (Bel/ML(S), SPA,…etc) shouldn’t be a problem “transferring” them providing you have the evidence to prove you have them
-those that are MOD specific, DI, SAAI will unfortunately be down to local situation or at least that is the impression i get. a F7257 will shooting quals, or certificate of pass from other courses should be enough…there maybe some “familiarisation” given any differences between ACF/Army and ATC/RAF ways of doing things (drill/dress being the obvious one i can think of) but otherwise it should be simple.
as for training courses…pass! i would expect a uniformed CFAV to have gone through the same hoops as everyone else so a week at Cranwell would be expected, it is the case for former regulars entering the ATC despite a lifetime of experience and service so can’t see why it shoudl be different for ACF…
Thank you Steve, i was interested in your last comment though regarding the ACF being no different from ex regulars coming through the door. Although i can understand everyone going through the same process (and am fully expecting it) i am not sure an ex-reg and an ACF instructor can really be compared.
As an ACF instructor we all get training in the following (im only including what is cross transferable and this is over a 12-18 month period):
CFAV Roles and responsibilities
Values and Standards
Training Safety
Working with cadets
Youth (Cadet) Leadership
Teamwork
Safeguarding
CFIT (replacement for MOI)
Basic Shooting and coaching course
First aid
This is then followed by a week course with a cadet training team where we have to deliver 3 assessed lessons throughout the week as well as covering other subjects.
Not to mention actually doing the job of working with cadets from 12-18 for x number of years
I could hazard a good guess that this is exactly what is covered by the ATC in the initial training. Although an ex-reg has invaluable experience throughout a career, i would guess the majority would not have covered the above which is no more than the basics of working as a CFAV, hence why they have to do the courses.
I will be intrigued to find out what the process is when i meet my prospective OC on Tuesday night
