and this comes from Wings/WSO’s doing things their own way. I’ve been in Wings that you could easily phone the WATTO and ask him to take a look at a Bader SMS for a day walk at the weekend as the weather was looking good and the DofE Team needed to top up Nav Training and it would be signed off that night, happy days. I’ve also been in Wings that unless you give at least 4 weeks notice of an AT event it wouldn’t even be considered and you’d get a snotty email in return for daring to ask at ‘short notice’.
4 Likes
this is answered by:
yes i accept the admin for a longer event is more than a 8 hour day walking event
however an walk in the local area starting from and ending at the Squadron HQ held on a parade evening, situated in the Home Counties is treated as equally risky as a day walk in the Lake District, in that a RA needs to be completed, admin order explaining the reasons and justification for the event, plus the controls in place and then submitted with sufficient time so that the OC and then WATTO can check it over, and then approve the event.
likewise and evening of air rifle shooting with two cadets requires the same forms, and planning sheets (from the RCO point of view at least) as a full day’s shooting at 600m, again with the appropriate notices given to the Wing Shooting Officer
the only difference between the two is the level of qualification held - although in the case of the RCO it is the same initial qualification as RCO with the bolted on LR (whereas ML is a much more indepth and separate qual in comparison to BEL), Both require the same paperwork tick boxes on an SMS application, in the AT example despite holding a NGB.
as identified by @emz there is also (i suspect local) ruling on the notice period prior to events.
gone is the chance to be spontaneous about the training we offer, and by spontaneous i don’t mean changing the plan on the night, but as far in advance as two weeks or even a month in advance.
Certainly our Wing Shooting officer requests Shooting applications to be “complete” for his appraisal no less than two weeks in advance and even then is known to use the full period of time to consider the event.
One of the reasons we did more in the old days was the lack of admin for the sake of admin on a parade night or for a day walk People have mentioned going to the range on a parade night on spec… Even longer AT or activities could be block booked for locations, so you’d just contact the campsite, pull out some maps and go if the weather looked good. Just because we did it this way didn’t mean it wasn’t planned or wasn’t safe. It was a supremely flexible way of working.
We live in a climate of control for the sake of control.
I do wonder if anyone has ever done a time study on how much time an OC who is effective in their role spends doing admin. I often think some of our staffing issues are likely down to losing staff to admin on a parade night.
When I was first an OC I could happily teach lessons still or supervise a project if needed as realistically there wasn’t that much admin that needed to be done every parade night. Now I get the feeling that unless you are doing admin outside of the core hours you would be sat at the desk constantly, hence the unit loses that member of staff.
1 Like
Why would you not need / want to risk assess an activity? You mean to tell me to couldn’t pull out a risk assessment that needs only a basic few changes to make it relevant to the event?
And an admin order for that kind of thing is a one - pager at most to describe the basic arrangements. A 5 min task at most, even less if it’s a repeat of a previous event where you can change an existing doc.
And this needs challenging.
We’re getting a bit off topic here. Maybe PM.
1 Like
I do feel that we did used to do more. In my cadet career we had flying for a squadron 2-3 times a year. British airways would also offer once a year to take cadets up. A minibus full would go each time. Now it seems
2-3 cadets a year get a chance to fly. (All our slots last year were cancelled). Gliding would be done a lot more again a minibus full at least 2-3 time’s a
Year.
Shooting would be a minibus full for a whole day. Fieldcraft weekends would involve us climbing into a 4 tonner and heading to Crowborough or Bramshot common.
Annual camps would be 2 coaches I have fond memories of Coningsby and Credon Hill. They would also have a work experience element where for a day you’d go to a section and learn about it.
Just my observations. To that end I endeavour to make sure our cadets have the same great experience as I did. Just with less Activities.
I know the RAF is smaller now a days.
1 Like
Looking at the survey what you mention is indicated and this, along with other things, is something HQAC have been suggested to look into further to better understand it, before another survey is conducted. However this would reveal some uncomfortable truths which HQAC would have neither the will or ability to affect.
So stand by for lots of fine words and parsnips unbuttered, because HQAC are like a zero hours contract employer, they couldn’t care less if they tried. Without reams of admin the permanent staff side of the ATC would be nothing and we are their unpaid flunkies.
I don’t buy that though. The time it takes anything to be actioned suggests they are chronically understaffed. Cutting the admin by a significant amount could be done without threatening jobs.
If you have to say that then you were not around in 1990 2000 2010
I was a cadet '98-'05.
If you want to try and make a declarative, objective statement about something, you have to be able to prove it. With stats, with evidence.
A couple of highly subjective anecdotes tainted by 27 layers of rose tinted glasses means absolutely nothing.
1 Like
Who isn’t understaffed today? Just where I work people haven’t been replaced when they leave and work gets picked up by those remaining, this applies to management as well, where you see a lot of roles merged with no extra pay.
I can’t think of one business where there are people dossing around like there used to be and you can’t sit there and say “I can’t” because not doing affects the business. I think that HQAC is part of the general malaise in the public sector, where there does seem to be an attitude that wouldn’t be tolerated in the private sector. I remember a mate of mine 8/9 years ago moaning they’d cut money and people and not replaced people at the council and he was having to do more no extra pay, I wasn’t at all sympathetic. We’d been like that for the 10 years before that. What made me smile was he seemed to have a job in EH where he bragged about how little he could get away with and then he couldn’t.
not Stats but for “evidence” I could offer the F3822
comparing mine to that of even our CWO I am sure i could bet which has more flying hours, rounds fired, camps attended and “other activities” (I actually looked at this and it would appear on average I did something on the weekend once every other month i was a Cadet - this doesn’t include items recorded elsewhere (such as the flying log/shooting record and other items)
1 Like
But how does that match up to ‘achieving’ more? How can you prove you achieved more than any current cadet?
One thing to note in all the responses that have been fired my way on this… I’ve not once said that anybody is wrong. I’ve not once said that I disagree. I just asked for proof. And instead of evidence I got accused of not having been a member.
If the first thought of people is to jump on me for daring to ask for some proof, rather than actually provide said proof, doesn’t that say something else…?
1 Like
it doesn’t unless you wish to look at the “awards” pages.
it is not hard or water tight evidence but as evidence of the “cadet experience” it is a good measure and the best we have
When I was a cadet I wanted above to be doing things, “achieving” things wasn’t even on the radar.
In today’s ATC we offer so little that I can’t understand why cadets stay as it’s pretty obvious the opportunities aren’t there. But then I feel the social side of the ATC is more important than the actual doing things.
Like some others I look at my 3822, just under 9 years as a cadet 7 UK annual camps, Overseas camps in Germany, additional pages selotaped in for shooting (.22, .303 & 7.62), AEF and sport, page and half of gliding, couple of pages of AT, cadet exchanges and too many other things to mention. I look at cadets now two annual camps if they are lucky, a couple of .22 or AR details normally coupled with WHTs, no flying or gliding and that’s the ones who’ve been in 3 or 4 years. We’re lucky that we are able to use an indoor climbing wall and tag into kayaking so we can offer some different things.
Achievements are a personal thing, I achieved things but weren’t something I was looking to do, but I think we now use achievements too much to fill gaps.
2 Likes
Speak for yourself.
I think we’ve all long since got the not-at-all-subtle hint that your unit is a hellscape.
6 Likes
Isn’t some of what we suffer partly the old hq staff Vs everyone else mindset? Seen some good things breaking this down e.g. from bader team lately…
As a dep wing padre I’m supposed to serve both of course, and think that a servant leadership mindset is great anywhere…
Personally, I think no form should exceed a page, numbered with two digits so we can’t have more than 100, a prize to anyone who eliminates a form or delegates approval authority, and no form introduced unless another bites the dust… But then I’m a naive idealist of course!
1 Like