Can someone please point me to the policy on when and for what TG forms are needed? Is it for anything off unit or are there some things which don’t need one like Parades?
Policy on TG forms?
You might as well try and find vows of fidelity in a French wedding service…
1 Like
Just in my limited time in the ACO things have changes so as a good rule of thumb. get them for EVERYTHING even so a cadet can use the loo. (joke)
But better to be safe than sorry and sorry is not a nice place to be if it does go wrong.
[quote=“Perry Mason” post=18961]Policy on TG forms?
You might as well try and find vows of fidelity in a French wedding service…[/quote]
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
[quote=“noah claypole” post=19014][quote=“Perry Mason” post=18961]Policy on TG forms?
You might as well try and find vows of fidelity in a French wedding service…[/quote]
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:[/quote]
Does no-one else think the absence of any policy in such an important area is a bit lapse?
[quote=“Baldrick” post=19017][quote=“noah claypole” post=19014][quote=“Perry Mason” post=18961]Policy on TG forms?
You might as well try and find vows of fidelity in a French wedding service…[/quote]
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:[/quote]
Does no-one else think the absence of any policy in such an important area is a bit lapse?[/quote]
When I started - Yes.
Now - No.
Absolutely, yes. There are other areas where policy doesn’t quite come up to expectation too!
Why, or why, in this digital age, do we need the repetitive completion of such forms? It’s archaic, often irrelevant & a huge admin burden. Drag the ACO into the 21st Century - please! :mad:
Standard consent form from parents/carers/guardians, - “I authorise little Johnnie/Josephine to attend all ATC activities; I understand that it is my sole responsibility to advise you if there are any activities that I wish to be excluded.”
Medical form, complete once - “Here are the full medical details for little Johnnie/Josephine; I understand that it is my sole responsibility to advise you if there are any changes in medical conditions or details.”
E-copies of forms to be available/accessible for the relevant activity (complete - once - a suitable Data Protection caveat if needed).
Problem solved. B)
Will this cover us when the cadet has a falling-out with parents and decides to go off to camp without telling them? A weekend course? a sports activity?
Does that suitably cover backsides when said cadet falls ill when away due to an obsolete medical declaration?
And indeed, how much information do first aiders or A&E units actually need?
It’s an interesting one…
On the one hand, there’s a very good chance that if it was left up to parents to update a cadets medical record only when a new condition came about that things would fall through the net and so it is worth having the medical form… at the same time having a clear medical form is no guarantee that the cadet doesn’t have a condition (just ask my adj about that one!).
Perhaps we should make the NHS Number (or equivalent) a mandatory bit of information upon joining for all personnel and have this held on SMS and pre-printed on whichever bits of paperwork it is seen as necessary to generate when supporting ATC activities.
We do have blanket consent for strenuous activities on the F3822a.
Currently, we use them for every wing event (they mandate them), for overnight stuff and for AT/Fieldcraft stuff.
Personally, I would prefer to see something similar to what MJ has written above. It should be down to the parent to update us on changes, rather than having reams of paper to complete each time something happens.
What do the ACF/scouts do?
<<<< Will this cover us when the cadet has a falling-out with parents and decides to go off to camp without telling them? A weekend course? a sports activity? >>>>
Do we actually check the signature(s) from parents/carers/guardians (or verify by 'phone call that permission was really given?) to ensure that little Johnnie/Josephine hasn’t completed the form themselves?
We cannot cover everything, & parents can be forgetful - even if you made it an annual requirement, it will still cut down the workload significantly.
It’s currently out-dated, cumbersome & merely a repetitive “cover the ACO backside” exercise. Make the initial forms water-tight with regard to subsequent up-dates & cut down on such a huge admin faff.
<<<< And indeed, how much information do first aiders or A&E units actually need? >>>>
I would suggest any significant health issue that requires on-going medication, etc, such as asthma, or major allergies (if they need to carry an epi-pen). For the rest, you wouldn’t get anything from the GP’s notes until well after the cadet and left A&E! 
[sub](I don’t trust the security of such medical information & when the great NHS database of patient records is finally on-line, i certainly won’t be permitting sharing of my GP data.)[/sub]
Don’t look to make this a complicated exercise, it should be a base-line & simple solution.
Will this cover us when the cadet has a falling-out with parents and decides to go off to camp without telling them? A weekend course? a sports activity?
Does that suitably cover backsides when said cadet falls ill when away due to an obsolete medical declaration?
And indeed, how much information do first aiders or A&E units actually need?[/quote]
Perhaps a compromise would be for small permission slips to be used for each activity, where the parent signs to give their consent and also confirms that they have already notified the squadron of all relevant medical information?
[quote=“MattB” post=19036]It’s an interesting one…
On the one hand, there’s a very good chance that if it was left up to parents to update a cadets medical record only when a new condition came about that things would fall through the net and so it is worth having the medical form… at the same time having a clear medical form is no guarantee that the cadet doesn’t have a condition (just ask my adj about that one!).[/quote]
Just ask the rest of my staff about that one. We had a cadet who submitted a clean medical form, then asked the question ‘does one lung count as a medical condition?’ I think my face said it all. Had a quiet word with Mum when she came to pick him up. Next TG form? Blank! Reminded them several times more & explained that even if it didn’t affect him they were better to declare it, particularly as he had made us aware of it.
If the brown stuff hit the spinny thing, I didn’t fancy having to explain why I knew he had a breathing issue yet allowed his parents to submit a clean medical form.
[quote=“asdevil768” post=19051][quote=“MattB” post=19036]It’s an interesting one…
On the one hand, there’s a very good chance that if it was left up to parents to update a cadets medical record only when a new condition came about that things would fall through the net and so it is worth having the medical form… at the same time having a clear medical form is no guarantee that the cadet doesn’t have a condition (just ask my adj about that one!).[/quote]
Just ask the rest of my staff about that one. We had a cadet who submitted a clean medical form, then asked the question ‘does one lung count as a medical condition?’ I think my face said it all. Had a quiet word with Mum when she came to pick him up. Next TG form? Blank! Reminded them several times more & explained that even if it didn’t affect him they were better to declare it, particularly as he had made us aware of it.
If the brown stuff hit the spinny thing, I didn’t fancy having to explain why I knew he had a breathing issue yet allowed his parents to submit a clean medical form.[/quote]
I had one lass at Cosford who kept fainting on the march. When I asked her if she had any health issues (Clean TG21/CC1) she told me she had a heart condition which she hadn’t put on her form it as she was scared it would stop her doing activities!
To be fair, she was right, I dropped her at the next rest-stop.
Putting the responsibility on the parents is futile. They could easily fail to disclose an update then “claim” they wrote into the Sqn and produce a fake letter. Any claim would go against us as our procedure is as slack as…
Simple rule. Overnight or more then two hours from home. = TG21
Same activity type (JL/QAIC) one form
Local stuff inc sports. No form.
Happy medium
[quote=“Plt Off Prune” post=19066]Putting the responsibility on the parents is futile. They could easily fail to disclose an update then “claim” they wrote into the Sqn and produce a fake letter. Any claim would go against us as our procedure is as slack as…
Simple rule. Overnight or more then two hours from home. = TG21
Same activity type (JL/QAIC) one form
Local stuff inc sports. No form.
Happy medium[/quote]
Surely more than 2 hours? We’ll need them for Squadron next!
<<<< Putting the responsibility on the parents is futile. >>>>
Well, in that case, moving along with that logic, they could easily produce a “fake” TG form copy, saying that is the version they submitted & you must have lost it…
If we don’t rely on the integrity of parents, then the whole system falls down. Yes, in isolated circumstances (& from the examples quoted, extreme conditions), the parents will be selective with their disclosures. If little Johnnie/Josephine keels over, then all legal responsibility would bounce back to whoever signed the TG form.
I say again, don’t overcomplicate what is already a overly-cumbersome system. Simplify it for all. One form for all activities, with a suitable validity (one year would be my suggestion).; do it as part of the annual “please confirm address & contact details” are still the same.
If necessary, have an extra signature block in the form to emphasise the “It is your sole responsibility to notify us if little Johnnie/Josephine has a change in their medical condition; you will be sent to the deepest bowels of hell if you omit such information or you don’t tell us of a change & something happens to them!”
I thought or more hoped the ABRT was going to sort this out.
All we need is a permission slip and use SMS for everything else, rather than this clunky, paper-based expensive system.
When it comes to medical aspects isn’t this a flaw in SMS where we should put all notified conditions. IF we had restricted view say medical and contact details and just a short form saying yes they can go on on said activity with say alternate contact details. So much was made of SMS at the outset yet we cannot actually use to our suit our needs and puuposes, such as create our own reports. Yes I know all about the DP side, but I’ve got mates in schools and in childrens services who said they use their respective IMS to pull details for kids. So if it happens elsewhere why is the ATC so tetchy about it? It could be resrticted to CO and Adj accounts and done on a needs basis.