Well I stand corrected the way ATF teach it is different. I always look on it that I am a guest in someone’s home and treat it like such.
So you have never got to the mid week point and needed just to go and crash in your room and recharge your batteries??
I have done camps in the same accommodation as cadets and never had the ability just to switch off.
Perhaps it’s just me… If I’m with cadets I’m switched on always thinking of cadet stuff where as if I’m away from them I can easily switch off…
But as I say we are all guessing until the facts are known we are only guessing or passing on hearsay
this is, for me, very much an issue - though oddly i found it to be much more pressing when on a Station camp as opposed to an AT/Training Area Camp.
as a Sqn if we’re going to be away for a week we try and build in half a day off during the trip so peole can unwind, get some peace and quiet, do something with no ATC element to it and so come back refreshed and keen, rather than over-run by the little darlings.
personally i think having staff stay in the respective messes during stn camp is absolutely crucial - it allows people to unwind, it allows them to talk to and observe their regular and reserve colleagues, it allows them to explore ideas and scrounge stuff/experiences, and it gives the services some exposure to us.
i choose not to go to annual camps for a number of reasons, but i can be absolutely adamant that if the ACO were to decide to go to a system where staff were expected to stay with the cadets i wouldn’t be reconsidering my view. its not staying in the Mess thats the absolute crux - some of them are complete dumps that make a derelict Travelodge look vibrant and inviting - its the staying somewhere else thats important. such camps are often pretty stressful affairs, not being able to get away from the hubbub for a few hours would be the deathknell for me…
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^^ I can’t agree more
And yes for some reason a blue on station camp is a higher tempo than AT camps.
Interesting about messing - a quick flick through the memory bank says I’ve stayed in the mess on the following camps:
Shawbury and Valley in the mess
High Wycombe and (other time at) Valley in alternative accommodation, eating in the mess
Waddington was alternative accommodation, eating with the cadets
Brize and Marham were tented, eating with the cadets
So roughly 1/4 of the time actually staying in the mess, and roughly 1/2 of the time eating in it.
I must be very lucky then last 15years only three times have I ate with cadets. Accommodation I have been in transit or mess annex’s about 6 times
With regards to tents can I ask your thoughts??
Last tented camp I did…
The tents were the old 12x12s, We had 4 tents with holes you can put your fist through, no lights, no duck boards and only 75% of the required camp beds fully usable all luggage went on the ground. It rained for a week we ended up with the cadets in the gym and staff sleeping in the camp office. Friends are just back and advise it’s still the same 4 years on.
I don’t think that’s acceptable for anyone…
Yeah, my two experiences of tented camps were pretty dire.
Marham the tents were structurally OK, but the only lighting was on the duck-boards outside the tent (no internal lights). And at Brize the week after my camp the place flooded and the remainder of the camp had to be cancelled.
To be honest, I tend to be of the opinion that if there isn’t any hard accommodation available, then it’s probably best not to hold a camp there (apologies for the tangent) - I’ve been on a few large, ATC-run camps where a wing or similar will take over a training camp for the week, and essentially run their own blue annual camp - if there’s a nearby unit then the cadets don’t even have to miss out on the section visits. I think that may well be the way to go for most camp places these days.
i take the same view - as i think does pretty much everyone i know - the ‘Annual camp’ model is broken, the shrinking of the RAF’s footprint means that its simply not a viable method any more and hasn’t been for at least a decade.
its now a marginally less exclusive club than the Germany and Cyprus camps of my cadet service were (which i went on several times, incase anyone thinks i’m all bitter and twisted…), the ACO needs to grip that fact and crack on with building mass participation alternatives - and to me, camps at the big training areas on an AT/FC and shooting basis look like being the only realistic answer.
Perhaps this needs a new thread but I agree with Angus but also disagree with the comment blues camps are broken.
Our camps need to be reviewed and properly to see what we are doing and where we can better it.
The blues camps are a good thing but perhaps they should be pitched to younger and older cadets say 13-14 and 18 to 20
So that the younger cadets get up
Close with a tornado and all that excitement and older ones to see the RAF and take part in more advanced activities than a section visit maybe a more hands on work experience camp
Those in the middle the can go to the skill camp idea, SNI region used to have Mach camps where you could go doing AT/ shooting/ RC flying etc for a week and comeback with an award of sorts…
To clarify what I meant, I don’t think there’s anything really wrong with blue camps at present - other than the number of places that the RAF can actually offer (especially if we actually did get rid of tented camps).
BigG - I get what you mean, but to be honest I think that the age range works anyway as the ages for which section visits should be particularly interesting and the age at which work experience makes sense would appear to pretty much cross over anyway.
to be clear, by ‘Broken’ i mean with regards to the basic principle that Annual Camp is a mean to allow lots of cadets to experience a slice of life, amongst other experiences, on an RAF Station.
my Sqn has a nightly attendence of about 35/40 cadets - we have six places at camp.
Six out of Thirty-five/Forty does not, rpt does not, qualify as ‘lots’ in any measurement of quantity that i’m aware of…
i have no problem with RAF Station camps, my problem is how many kids get to do them and the ratio of (national/local) effort that goes into providing them vs the output.
any Wing HQ could book a weeks worth of accomodation for 600 cadets and 100 staff at any of the training area camps at the drop of a hat - Sennybridge camp in Wales could accommodate three such Wing camps concurrently- its on the doorstep of the Brecon Beacons, its got a 40,000 acre training area, and its got half a dozen Gallery Ranges…
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Hahahahaha you are deluded. At priority 6 you’d rarely actually get what you want on that scale.
My experience is different - while specific facilities might have a queue of bidders, a situation where priority comes into play, accommodation on the camp is almost always available. Units tend to want to stay on the training area rather than in camp, and I’ve gone to camps where the training area is rammed but the accommodation is empty.
Obviously a little bit of planning is required, but we are fortunate that much of the time we might want to book coincides with periods when much of the Army is on block leave…
I am sure this is incorrect.
Any Officer of any type who is ON DUTY at a station is entitled to use the mess facility commensurate with their rank. Hence if we are on summer camp we are entitled to use the mess. It is the same with any RAuxAF officer performing duty on a station or any pilot landing away at a different station. As part of the the fees for staying in a mess we pay towards a mess subscription - our membership fee for the duration.
Sgts, FS and WO(ATC) not being RAF reserves are invited to use the mess, but are not entitled.
This is my first post on ACC so bear with me! I am an SCC officer (don’t worry I’m not lost!) and have been lurking on these forums for some time - I enjoy finding out about how things are done in the other cadet forces and have often found ideas here that I can use to improve the way I do things or that have changed my opinion on how things should be done.
All that being said, I am struggling to see what the issue is here? As an SCC officer I receive no commission of any kind. We are granted an honorary appointment in the RNR with “SCC” included to distinguish us even further (e.g. Lieutenant (SCC) Joe Bloggs RNR). I have no bit of paper that entitles me to anything.
Yet this has never been a problem. We are always accommodated in the Wardroom whilst on RN establishments (and the officers’ mess the one time I’ve been on a course at an army camp) and never once have I had to eat with cadets. SCC senior rates are likewise always accommodated in the SR&WO’s mess.
I just don’t see what difference the VR(T) commission really makes? Sure, I can understand that it would undoubtedly be irritating to have it taken away from you (conversely, I’d have no problems accepting an RNR commissioning scroll if they suddenly decided to give them to SCC officers) but would the rumoured Cadet Forces commission really make any difference? As far as I see, we operate fine without one and the arguments in this thread don’t seem to add up for me.
Interesting input regarding your commission clears up some misunderstandings…
Regarding accommodation on camp. Next week someone has decided on the new whatever and you will now be required to share accommodation with cadets…
What’s your thoughts???
Done it before on camps, it’s difficult for the staff and cadets - the cadets don’t get a break away from staff and the staff don’t get any downtime from cadets - staff were climbing the walls by Wednesday. There needs to be a breakout area for staff and cadets separate if the accom is together.
BUT
If that’s the only way we can run cadet camps - so be it - we are here for the cadets
Well… unintentionally I just proved the point about OM accommodation being an entitlement…
We were due to camp at RAF Station 1; Station 1 required us to book our own accommodation in the Mess. The camp was cancelled after I had booked and we were reallocated to a spare week at RAF Station 2, so my immediate move was to book myself into the mess at Station 2.
The admin order for Station 2 was very late and only arrived a couple of weeks after that. Lo and behold, the pre-camp visit report stated ‘no accommodation is available in the Officers’ Mess.’
I’d not heard back from the mess and thought nothing more of it. Then about 1.5 weeks before the camp I received an email - ‘your accommodation is booked for you Sir’. I emailed the other officers (being camp com and feeling guilty) to ask if they’d rather I slummed it with them in the cadet block; only one replied and her response was ‘crack on!’. So I did.
No problem at all; and indeed the mess wasn’t busy.
I wonder if there are two things in play here:
a. Inexperienced (junior) ACLO asks the mess ‘are there six rooms available for the whole camp period?’ - answer No.
or
b. A general feeling, passed from ACLO to ACLO, that it’s just not worth the bother getting rooms sorted and then finding they’re not used.
Anyway, the ACLO had no objection to my being in the Mess (though he was a bit less happy when he discovered my room was in the main building, while he lived in an annex!) but I suggested to him for future camps the ‘Station 1’ solution: require officers to book their own accommodation if required. This gives them the option: if they want to be in the cadet block they can; and if they are too nervous/inexperienced staying in the Mess this gives them an opt-out. But if they know what they are doing and are happy working the system they get their entitlement and, crucially, no-one is lied to…
One wonders why they are an officer if they can’t find the courage to get in there and get some damn experience.
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Ah yes, but then a senior officer should mentor them through the process - as was done for me, 13 years ago and counting…