Suspended cadet

Adult Staff The Staff Mess
1

Ok. So Tuesday night, there was an incident involving 2 JNCOs. Neither of them likes the other and they always wind each other up (not normally in front of cadets). One of the Cpls in question was showing a silly picture of the other to cadets as a laugh. The “victim” reported this to the sqn Adj (as the OC was not at the unit that evening).

After a short discussion with the cadet who showed the picture, the Cpl was ‘suspended’ for his actions. I was shocked when I heard this as he is one of the better cadets on our unit.

As a CI, I don’t know if this is sanction is allowed to be carried out by an officer. But the cadet seemed to think he had been treated unfairly. Please could someone shed some light on this!? :?

2

what was the picture?

3

Code of conduct and disciplinary process for cadets is clearly laid out in the personnel regulations on SharePoint.

4

At the end of the day, if it is bullying the Cpl is gone. Golden rule in the ATC, bullying is zero tolerance.

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5

as JM as identified. however minor this falls under bullying…it could be banter or full blown bullying but either way it falls under the policy for bullying and thus the course of action was correct.

6

not necessarily true - low level bullying is allowed for in the policy and a series of warnings must be given before dismissal.

See Table 2 to Annex B to PI501 in ACP20.

7

[quote=“redowling” post=22345]not necessarily true - low level bullying is allowed for in the policy and a series of warnings must be given before dismissal.

See Table 2 to Annex B to PI501 in ACP20.[/quote]

If this was my unit and I was absent then I would expect the Adj to suspend until my return so in this case I think the Adj has taken the best course of action.

8

Why can’t your adj follow the policy? It’s written down in black and white…?

9

He may well have been - if he’s been warned before and it’s considered bullying then suspension would be appropriate.

10

I still think the OC is the final arbiter in matters such as this. It is very difficult to get rid of a cadet, so the OC needs to take point on it.

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11

To kick a cadet out IIRC requires investigations and report that needs to go to Region, who will deliver the final verdict and or actions.

If this is the first real incidence, the course of action here should have been talk to cadet, with a letter to parents inviting them to the sqn, however it is likely that the parents will visit after final parade. If done when the OC is absent, the OC has to be fully appraised of how and why, because they will have to incur the sh!t storm this will create as the adj regardless doesn’t have the executive remit. I used to tell them they wouldn’t be considered for flying, gliding and camps, but gliding doesn’t currently have any weight, flying is sketchy and the camps with the general lack of places is also no longer a proper threat.

Having spoken to friends who work in schools around dealing with bullying, they have said that you could probably have a quarter of a senior school on fixed exclusions for bullying if they didn’t take a broader view. Which is quite a scary thought and TBH potentially similar levels must be able to be equally applied to the Corps, given we draw from the same basic stock.

I do think that the ATC policy although drawn from various modern guidances can be read as too black and white and people who run scared of their shadows will over-react. Policy is one thing, application in the cold light of day is something completely different. If you apply it as zero tolerance with no quarter given, then you are opening yourself up to a whole host of problems, IMO. Because after the initial incident you have no option but to follow the same course of action. So a less rigid approach gives you some leeway in how you deal with things. My way would be (after ‘investigation’ etc) on final parade get the perpetrator, if the investigation proves to be conclusive, to apologise in front of the whole squadron, a letter of apology to the person concerned and a grudging handshake. A little embarrassment in front of their peers is good for the soul.

I got this idea from a mate in the police has done it with low level ASB, as an apology to the victim in person, with the kids parents present. He said the kids who do this are extremely embarrassed and sheepish as are the parents and only the really hard core / stupid reoffend. If they decline the offer, then it goes to full prosecution. He said that a lot of kids get caught up with the wrong crowd / do heat of the moment stuff / thing for a laugh and do things completely out of character and being kids don’t, regardless of the things that they get told in school, still fully understand the consequences / impact of what they say or do, especially when it comes to using the technology they have at their fingertips.

We used to play knock/bud up as kids and it’s only as an adult with ageing parents that you understand the impact it could have on old people. I think it would be regarded as ASB now, but was kids being naughty kids when I was growing up.

12

Frankly, We cannot know enough of the details of this incident to start to comment.

Suspension and dismissal both sit at a level above Sqn staff. What you can do is send someone away for the night, whist investigations etc are made.

I think the Adj in this case has probably done the right thing, allowing for further investigation into the incident to take place. It should be noted at this stage that this is the ONLY reason the cadet is sent away, and that this in itself will not prejudice the outcome or any final sanction.

If you are unhappy with the process as it is being applied, then start by asking the Adj or the OC to explain to you.

MW

13

are people missing the Cadet in questioned was “suspended” rather than kicked out?

suspension until the OC’s returns seems a very logical and sensible decision…

“suspended pending investigation of allegation of bullying” seems a valid reason to me

14

Sorry, but the staff take some of the blame here…a number of you will disagree here I think
I have had cadets who hate each other but once they walk through the gate onto the squadron, then they must respect each other and work together if they cannot then neither should of been an NCO. an NCO should be there as a role model for younger cadets are these 2 idiots showing the correct attitude? it should of been stopped long before it got to this point but reading between the lines from the OP it seems they have been told off and told off but no real action taken to tackle the problem.

15

A fair point - I think my point really is bullying does not automatically equal suspension/removal from the Corps; some people seem to be applying a one size fits all viewpoint which is not appropriate. There is now a well-defined process to deal with these issues which, I imagine, is intended to reduce casework load due to improperly handled incidents and to protect the people issuing sanctions/etc from any complaints of bullying against themselves!

16

Your way is stuck in the 60’s/70’s and is NOT what you should be doing in today’s society. You cannot force anyone to apologise neither can you publicly humiliate them in front of their peers. That’s bullying also, and from someone who is supposed to know better. You’d be on the wrong end of a new investigation if caught doing that. Disgusting.

17

There are some teachers (modern versions, not the ones that I had who used to throw chalk dusters with unerring accuracy!) who consider ghe2’s method as sometimes being very appropriate to show that bullying will not be tolerated, that “kissing & making up in public” ensures maximum publicity to peers & it is seen as a good way to have formal closure to the matter.

Quite often it might be one bully who is “caught” but there are several others (same group of peers) on the sidelines who got away with it - that time…

Is it just me, but I think that a higher percentage of cadets display weaker “social interaction” skills compared to yesteryear; they are great with SnapChats, etc, but when when it comes to inter-acting with real people, the conversations are stilted & very mono-syllabic!

A tongue in cheek comparison with then & now:

[quote]SCHOOL – 1957 vs. 2012
Scenario: Johnny and Mark get into a fistfight after school.
1957 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up buddies.
2012 - Police called, arrests Johnny and Mark. Charge them with assault, both expelled from school even though Johnny started it. Both children go to anger management programs for 3 months. School board hold meeting to implement bullying prevention programs.
Scenario: Robbie won’t be still in class, disrupts other students.
1957 - Robbie sent to office and given 6 of the best by the Principal. Returns to class, sits still and does not disrupt class again.
2012 - Robbie given huge doses of Ritalin. Becomes a zombie. Tested for ADD. Robbie’s parents get fortnightly disability payments and School gets extra funding from state because Robbie has a disability.
Scenario : Billy breaks a window in his neighbour’s car and his Dad gives him a whipping with his belt.
1957 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college, and becomes a successful businessman.
2012 - Billy’s dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy removed to foster care and joins a gang. State psychologist tells Billy’s sister that she remembers being abused herself and their dad goes to prison.
Scenario : Mark gets a headache and takes some aspirin to school.
1957 - Mark gets glass of water from Principal to take aspirin with.
2012 - Police called, Mark expelled from school for drug violations. Car searched for drugs and weapons.
Scenario : Johnny takes apart leftover firecrackers from Guy Fawkes night, puts them in a model airplane paint bottle, blows up an ant nest.
1957 - Ants die.
2012 - State Police, Star Force, Federal Police & Anti-terrorism Squad called. Johnny charged with domestic terrorism, Feds investigate parents, siblings removed from home, computers confiscated. Johnny’s Dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again.
Scenario : Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee. He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. Mary hugs him to comfort him.
1957 - In a short time, Johnny feels better and goes on playing.
2012 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces 3 years in Prison. Johnny undergoes 5 years of therapy.[/quote]

18

you’ve obviously not read a newspaper in the last 20 years.

Restorative Justice is the big thing in criminal justice these days - what GHE2 suggested is infact absolutely current, and established policy.

policy from the 60/70’s would have been to give the pair of them a right shoeing.

19

you’ve obviously not read a newspaper in the last 20 years.

Restorative Justice is the big thing in criminal justice these days - what GHE2 suggested is infact absolutely current, and established policy.

policy from the 60/70’s would have been to give the pair of them a right shoeing.[/quote]

Exactly right, I hate to admit that GHE2 is correct, but that style of restorative justice is exactly what courts are ordering for everything from Public Order to Assault.

20

you’ve obviously not read a newspaper in the last 20 years.

Restorative Justice is the big thing in criminal justice these days - what GHE2 suggested is infact absolutely current, and established policy.

policy from the 60/70’s would have been to give the pair of them a right shoeing.[/quote]

Exactly right, I hate to admit that GHE2 is correct, but that style of restorative justice is exactly what courts are ordering for everything from Public Order to Assault.[/quote]

Restorative justice is the big thing, for the moment, but the stats are my stacking up. Recidivism is rife amongst those who take part and there’s lots of studies going on about it. Not only that but the offender has to agree to take part - they can’t be ordered to do so. So that flies in the face of the above scenario.