Using recidivism as an argument is nonsense. No forms of punishment work as a deterrent for all, so on that basis do we stop all forms of punishment as nothing works? The prisons, courts and police stations are full those for whom offending is just part of their day, however there are many for whom it will be their first and only time, as the shame and or embarrassment will have an effect.
As a unit commander your hands are bound by what I regard as Guardian reader faff so you need to be able to do somethng that has impact, without inflicting physical pain. A publc apology won’t damage them pyschologically and if it gets them to think about the effect their actions has on others, by their own public humiliation and they don’t do it, then so much the better. I wouldn’t want to get into the sort of rubbish that goes on in modern schools, which to me is completely ineffective. I remember the stories my kids came home with, of kids there who were disruptive all the time and all they got were time outs in isolation, detentions and potentially exclusions. They didn’t want to be there so the last one was a gift.
Whatever course you take, ensure it is swift with as short a time as possible between the offence and your punishment. If it drags on too long it loses it’s relevance and people see it as nothing happening. For something as per the OP it should be sorted out by the following week if not parade.
[quote=“glass half empty 2” post=22388]Using recidivism as an argument is nonsense. No forms of punishment work as a deterrent for all, so on that basis do we stop all forms of punishment as nothing works? The prisons, courts and police stations are full those for whom offending is just part of their day, however there are many for whom it will be their first and only time, as the shame and or embarrassment will have an effect.
As a unit commander your hands are bound by what I regard as Guardian reader faff so you need to be able to do somethng that has impact, without inflicting physical pain. A publc apology won’t damage them pyschologically and if it gets them to think about the effect their actions has on others, by their own public humiliation and they don’t do it, then so much the better. I wouldn’t want to get into the sort of rubbish that goes on in modern schools, which to me is completely ineffective. I remember the stories my kids came home with, of kids there who were disruptive all the time and all they got were time outs in isolation, detentions and potentially exclusions. They didn’t want to be there so the last one was a gift.
Whatever course you take, ensure it is swift with as short a time as possible between the offence and your punishment. If it drags on too long it loses it’s relevance and people see it as nothing happening. For something as per the OP it should be sorted out by the following week if not parade.[/quote]
Whatever you think, whatever you believe in, whtever side you butter your bread, you follow the rules of the organisation. If you don’t like how it’s drive, feel free to get off the bus and hop onto the next one which will be along shortly. Your approach and attitude reflects on the rest of us. You have a problem with bullies? I say the problem is elsehwere…
So I take it you are a very black and white chap. Let’s hope you never go to court and get in front of a bench with your attitude, and on your first offence get treated the same as a repeat offender in terms of outcome. I don’t know what you do for a living but I can’t imagine you following each and every rule to the letter each and every time and similarly your life generally.
Yes I do have a problem with bullies and in my view they should be made to feel as awkward and uncomfortable as their victims. Kicking them out of a voluntary organisation doesn’t do this IMO, especially when the process to achieve that is a long winded affair and after investigation might not get the result you expect. The over-riding thing you need is for the victim(s) to come forward and make a complaint or be comfortable if they do something will happen to make it stop, hopefully.
I wonder how many of our bretheren from the police have had someone banged to rights, but no one will testify against them for fear of the consequences or they get off.
GHE2, regardless of your thoughts the fact that you are openly going against policy only leaves me with the feeling that YOU are one of the people the organisation has a problem with, and so they come up with daft ideas to stop people like you from doing whatever the hell you want.
Blatant disregard for our procedure (whether IYO right or wrong), means HQAC are going to constantly have to be doing casework to rectify the situation. This distracts them from their real jobs, and then you have the cheek to complain about them not doing their real jobs (or inventing policy to control muppets like you).
If you stick to the rules, you’ll make it easier for EVERYONE. We get away from having empire builders and we can progress the organisation. As it is, you are one of the very people causing the problems you so love to complain about. Irony.
I understand that the majority of the Commandant’s time is taken up by the afore mentioned casework… Heaven knows what could be achieved if she didn’t have that.
[quote=“hobrocket” post=22340]Ok. So Tuesday night, there was an incident involving 2 JNCOs. Neither of them likes the other and they always wind each other up (not normally in front of cadets). One of the Cpls in question was showing a silly picture of the other to cadets as a laugh. The “victim” reported this to the sqn Adj (as the OC was not at the unit that evening).
After a short discussion with the cadet who showed the picture, the Cpl was ‘suspended’ for his actions. I was shocked when I heard this as he is one of the better cadets on our unit.
As a CI, I don’t know if this is sanction is allowed to be carried out by an officer. But the cadet seemed to think he had been treated unfairly. Please could someone shed some light on this!? :?[/quote]
Erm… if not by an officer then who else?
At the end of the day, the Adj was deputising for the OC, dealt with an issue before passing it up the chain. You don’t know if the adj consulted with the OC or Wing Staff before making the decision and you shouldn’t be second guessing their decisions. It’s kinda of why we have a chain of command.
Just looking at the fact of what you’ve stated: -
Did Cpl A show a photo of Cpl B that was offensive the Cpl B? - Yes
Was the photo shown to cadets junior to Cpl B thus undermining their position? yes
Was this an ongoing situation rather than a one off incident? yes
Did Cpl A have permission to have a photo of Cpl B in their possession? probably not
Suspension-without-prejudice pending OC review (which should be no more than one parade night) with further escalation up the chain to wing & region if the situation is warranted, sounds the simplest & most logical decision.
Just be glad that you have someone with the moral courage & the backbone to take that decision and challenge the behaviour - too many times poor behaviour goes unchecked because people don’t want the hassle. If the cdt Cpl in question is as good as you say then it can’t have been a decision that the Adj liked having to take, so they could probably do with your support rather than being undermined for a decision that was with in their remit to make and they WILL have to be able explain their decision making to those higher up the chain of command.
Did Cpl A show a photo of Cpl B that was offensive the Cpl B? - Yes
Was the photo shown to cadets junior to Cpl B thus undermining their position? yes
Was this an ongoing situation rather than a one off incident? yes
Did Cpl A have permission to have a photo of Cpl B in their possession? probably not [/quote]
I would say welcome to the wonderful world of social media.
My son got the right ache when a picture of him doing something daft taken by someone else got on FB, as it dented the poor sods ego.
A mate in the village is now divorced as a picture taken at a party when he was working away from home, with him in more than friendly clinch with A N Other woman in the background, ended up on a FB page that his now former wife looked at.
One of my daughter’s mates who took a holiday after being told no, went sick, put her own pictures on her FB page, which her manager saw … no job.
One of the staff on the sqn at a party did the rounds on one his mates FB page and was seen by many on the sqn, including cadets. Caised him some embarrassment, but there you go.
Would you showing these pictures to people that are out there, be accused of bullying / harrassment in normal life?
If this lad had shown the photos off the sqn to other cadets, would that be bullying / harrassment?
So in this instance I think you need to look further, Obviously this NCO had been doing something they probably shouldn’t in / around someone with a phone (otherwise there would be no excitement) and they took the picture and show it around, or it has been sent to people by someone else. Is it bullying or is a lesson to be learned about how you conduct yourself, given that you can’t do much in this day and age without someone having a camera in their pocket.
I can’t imagine there aren’t photos of many of us taken in our teens that weren’t shown around and people had a laugh at your expense, but being proper photos have either been thrown away or sitting in a box in an attic somewhere. I know from my own personal life there are times I’ve done things and thanked God no one had a camera. Not much chance now, I am much, much more guarded now than I was about what I do and when I do it. The digital world offers a lot more freedom and in that contol / freedom / privacy is lost.
The comment about youngsters being more restrained in conversation, while yes, but this extends to many age groups and I’ve seen it develop in my own kids, who don’t venture out without a message or text, just before. The notion of planning anything more than 10-15 minutes in advance and agreeing to it seem to have disappeared. At work and at lunchtime conversation has all but disappeared, as urgent messages about frippary have to be sent or playing some game. It would be interesting to see what would happen if the mobile phone and internet died for 2 days.
