Staff joining process for cadets aging out

Good afternoon,

Now I think the process is important for some off the street that the corps knows nothing about but having been on the same sqn as a cadet then becoming CI it seems my previous service has been forgotten (ie not being able to lead a group of cadets without another member of staff) although i had completed AVIP (and basic) as well as holding a current DBS .

Am I being petty or does it seem stupid

Any more context for this? All new staff have a probationary period as there are different aspects that you may not be accustomed to. However, with an in-date DBS and AVIP you should be OK on the Sqn premises with other staff in the building. Off unit then other considerations apply such as ratios and conditions of probation (a staff cadet would have had staff cover in these regards in most circumstances).

If you’re being made to redo AVIP then I don’t disagree with this - the onus of the contents of ACP 4 and other sections of the course are far more relevant to staff with a greater degree of responsibility - staff have less top cover than staff cadets. All CFAV have to undergo safeguarding refresher training. It never hurts to refresh your mind of these things - as I said, a staff cadet will likely have been less involved and not exercised the course content. There are other things that wouldn’t have necessarily applied to your time as a staff cadet.

As a word of advice, take any and all opportunities to learn and refresh as much as possible as you transition - it will be of benefit in the long run, even if it feels unnecessary right now. Taking too much on, or throwing yourself into deep end, could impact you later on.

Be patient and build your experience as a staff member. Cadet experience will help you, but you need to separate your old role from your new one and treat this as a new venture.

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“Provided they are appointed within 2 years of leaving adult or cadet service, those who wish to become CIs are not subject to a period of probation, but they cannot be officially appointed until the criminal records check procedures have been completed.”

ACP 20, appointment of Civilian Instructors

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Missed that. Couldn’t remember if there was something there or not. However, the general gist of the probationary restrictions are from date of appointment and relate to attendance of events.

So if they’re awaiting fresh DBS and/or AVIP before official appointment then I can still see restrictions being in place.

That said, any existing CFAV worth anything should still oversee actions from a mentoring type position.

Few more details needed, I think. Though I do stand by the rest of what I said about refreshing and taking opportunities to build knowledge and experience.

To clarify I have done AVIP (having done basic for before staff cadet and AVIP when it came out) and I have a new DBS. I also left as a cadet 1 night then came back the next as staff.

If it’s just me being silly apologies for wasting everyone’s time

In those circumstances once appointed (ie HQAC email Wing) then you should be a full CI no probationary period necessary.

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No one has mentioned BPSS yet; will need doing as part of application process

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I’ve done one

As an ex cadet I would expect you to be fully clued up on what the organisation has to offer, we also know you, and if we didn’t think we could trust you to be responsible for other peoples children your OC shouldn’t have signed off on you becoming a CI.

If you don’t have access to Bader (Email / SharePoint / SMS) then get on to your OC to get that sorted, as a minimum you can gain access to Email & SharePoint using the General Account.

Figure out what you enjoy doing, and then use this access, to establish what you need to do in order to be able to do it.

By the time I was 20.5 I had completed SAAI & SA(SR)07 and was delivering activities to cadets.

The only thing that will stop you is the other CFAVs on your unit who still see a Cadet rather than a CFAV.

That’s as much about how you conduct yourself and get involved. If an ex cadet proves they’ve transitioned (and gaining quals, organising things, using initiative… Behaviour… Etc) it’s easier for staff to change how they view someone.

Time at another unit is a useful break for them as much as it is you, if possible.

In an ideal world perhaps, but with people coming forward to be staff in shorter supply than snowflakes in the Sahara, beggars cannot be choosers. As a CO I need bums on seats hopefully good bums, but even the most ‘up for it’ cadet once they get into the real world aren’t always an ‘up for it’ member of staff. They may start with all good intent but when the boss says need you to work or the wife/husband or gf/bf plans something and a cadet thing looms a lot of time the wife/husband or gf/bf get the nod over the ATC.

Think this looks more like wire getting crossed somewhere, because I thought the DBS carried over from cadet to staff and they should have done all the other rubbish. As soon as a new CI gets through all the crap, they go it alone, no baby-sitting. I was taking cadets on all sorts of things solo within a couple of weeks of becoming a CI. Mind you this was a long time ago.

I believed that DBS was transferrable - PVG in Scotland certainly is, as we clear people for work in teh organisation as they become staff cadets and that description doesn’t change as they move to staff non-cadet.

The required elements of AVIP are different depending on what sort of staff you are, but safeguarding is common for all types so a sensible HQ would place too many obstacles in the way of a staff cadet moving to CI. As has been said, there is no required probation period in that situation, though HQAC/SMS may list them as probationary until they get their admin straight.

Nope, we absolutely can be and must be choosers, but our systems need to be fast enough to allow us to get through the filters faster and more efficiently. We cannot be elitist, but we also cannot just let anybody join if they are genuinely unsuitable to the role.

If people were being paid for their efforts then yes you need to be choosy, we’ve interviewed and put up to 10 people through the process for one job, exhausting few days they were as very little else got done and we had to make the hours up.
But in an organisation solely reliant on people being prepared to give up their free time and in a world as reported where less people are volunteering across all sectors, as long as they tick the boxes then fine. Start getting too choosy / fickle and the following process will begin staff will carry on but soon get fed up and go probably with simultaneous loss of cadets and pretty soon squadrons will fold due to not enough cadets or staff. For the respective HQs to allow this to happen at a time when it seems that organised youth groups are needed for all manner of reasons is gross dereliction and those in paid positions sacked. It is unforgiveable in my opinion.
We’ve got 5 staff and getting at least 2 at the squadron some nights is a struggle.
I’ve been told about a squadron that has been closing on an ad hoc basis due to lack of staff and where their numbers had built are now losing cadets and another where the OC leaves Reg CWC to run the squadron if no other staff are available, which I didn’t think was why Reg CWC was invented. BUT in a world where volunteering is a dirty word and those we have are stretched, there are not too many options.

Have you ever considered that the reason you don’t get staff is because of you? It might be nothing to do with WHQ, RHQ or HQAC but your self defeating negative attitude is putting people off.

I don’t know where you are but I don’t have the same problems as you, and the admin processes should be the same. I’m having to beat people away from trying to join my staff team.

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Not just me, across our sector the squadrons are not getting any interest and across the Wing things aren’t like people want. When the WSO interviewed my new lady a few weeks ago, he told her she was only the 5th he’d interviewed this year and 2 of them had already given up on the process. I’ve spoken to the people I know in Scouts and ACF and everyone is not getting people showing any interest to be “adult helpers”. The local ACF has the Det Cdr and a PI, but their job is changing and he’s leaving. He’s told his CoC and basically what do you want us to do was the reply. He’s told me if it wasn’t for the fact he’d been a cadet he’d have binned it ages ago as it’s not worth it, but his wife is expecting their 3rd child and he said he may well have to. The Scout chap said they have 3 groups on the verge of closing due to lack of staff, but they as a district have 500 waiting to join.

When people like this lady come along they are told what they have to do warts ‘n’ all, before they can get stuck in and for the majority having to wait 6+ months and tick a load of boxes before they can get into it, seems is too long. This lady was amazed we don’t do online DBS (her employer does them online), or purely electronic applications, I explained that the MoD likes bits of paper as keeps people in jobs and is inconvenient. There is little point in trying to pretty things up IMO, as it could bite you, if they say, I wasn’t told that and you have to explain yourself.

We’ve got 5 of us and it’s been like that for around 4 years and you can see the other 4 (all ex-cadets) all much younger already looking jaded as their jobs and or family commitments increase.

It IS possible to describe the process truthfully without sounding like a cantankerous Meldrew.

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All I’ve ever done do is tell them what they have to as a list of things, nothing cantankerous. It’s just the list and time line gets longer and people want to start helping sooner.
Going to Wing to do the BPSS. There are a load of us all being told we need to do it and we’ve said come to us when we’re doing ATC work and not us go to them by taking time off our paid job.

So, our WExO went on a tour to help get existing staff through BPSS. So that’s an individual issue not a process issue.

No BPSS = No MOD90, no SC = longer admissions to stations and no improvement to shooting. And it’s not our diktat.

We have monthly intake nights for new staff at varying locations around the wing to ease the travel a little. WSOs and WExO in attendance, all paperwork filled out on the night.

We have only 3 compulsory elements (that spring to mind, someone chime in if I miss anything) - intake, AVIP, and Heartstart (that we run in house). So it’s one evening, one weekend, and then during parade nights.

The process (mandatory elements) isn’t as bad as can be made out when you add a little perspective against what they then open up the opportunity to do of they want and the benefits they can get from it.

An evening - they’ve already signed up to those

A weekend - useful and needed training in a social environment where they can meet a lot of people who could help them with whichever direction they want to go in or will need to speak to/email at some stage (I.e. Networking)

First Aid is an easy sell, especially considering how easy it is to tick off.

Yes the process and the paperwork is a pain, but it can be so much easier than many make it.

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Creative thinking, well thought through system.

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Ours is the same. All you have to do is ask and she will book in an evening on your training program to do it

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