So...what made you go from cadet to uniformed staff...?

Adult Staff The Staff Mess
1

This thread was vaguely inspired by the current ‘benefits of being VRT’ one, but it is a question thats been drifting around my head for years…

Disclaimer: I’m aware that the way I phrase things can sometimes get taken as a bit of an affront by people, so I just wanted to make sure this gets seen in the spirit I intend, which is honestly just one of curiosity.

I’m asking those folks who go straight from cadet to either SNCO or VRT at 20 (they may spend a brief time as CIs but always intend to be uniformed). I know that when I was coming up to 20 I was repeatedly asked which I was going to apply for and the surprised looks when I said ‘neither’ and I also remember other people asking if I ‘aspired’ to be uniformed staff.

And that’s where it gets difficult for me, because I find it hard to see uniformed staff as an ‘aspiration’ from the point of view of a cadet/staff cadet. My two first OCs both became CFAVs because they found out they were medically unfit for service while applying to the RAF, the third was ex RAF Regiment and the fourth had been a long-serving CI, so perhaps that coloured my view to some extent…

So what part of your time as a cadet made you aspire to do what uniformed staff do? Did you consider military service and decide it wasn’t for you? Did you never want to be armed forces (reg or reserve) but wanted to work with young people doing the sort of activities the ACO offer, if so, why uniform not CI?

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I’ve been a CI for the last 3years after being a cadet on the same squadron. I wanted to go straight into VR(T), but I couldn’t as I wasn’t a CWO (my later years as a cadet were hampered by poor behaviour on my part). I did not at the time want to be come a SNCO because I felt I could do more good as an Officer. However due to being only a Cdt FS at the time of timing out, I had to stick around as a CI for 12months before I could apply for VR(T).

This turned into 24months as I was enjoying the transition between cadets and staff whilst as the same time I felt I didn’t know enough of how things worked to rush into VR(T), and I was also starting a new job and other stuff like that that would have hampered my performance as a uniformed member of staff. I then applied for VR(T) sooner than I had planned due to the departure of the then current OC, and I felt that it was then my time to try and get in as an Officer to fill the gap that the then Adj (now OC) had left.

I went through the application, recently went down to Cranwell and have since been unsuccessful in my application, and have been deffered for 3years. I now have the choice of staying a CI or being SNCO, using my VR(T) application/interview to support the SNCO application.

I’ve decided that I’ll take the oppurtunity to become an SNCO, as I feel that I have a certain degree of influence on the sqn that I feel awkward having being only a CI. Also I’m looking forward to getting back into uniform (although not the one I had aspired to wear originally) and the challenges it will present.

Although I feel that I have outgrown the drill side of things (been there done that as a cadet), I’m still very much a “doer” and like to take the cadets for instruction and be on the “front line”, whilst still doing admin in the background. The personal development challenges of project managing,the personal developement of the staff and cadets on the sqn was what I was looking forward to most, but I’m sure if I stick out as an SNCO for a few years and reapply for VR(T) (if that’s what I still want) I’ll be a much better candidate for the role than what I am now.

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Age.

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As a Cadet i wanted to join the RAF and applied but was rejected on medical grounds, laughable at the time as i was clearly the fitness person my friends, Cadet colleagues and family knew, but deemed “medically unfit for military service” i had to rethink my future.

As such i continued as a Cadet (my plan was to join the UAS and on to the RAF from there) until i aged out at 20.
on a weekend home from university assiting the Sqn out at an annual event 2-3 weeks before my 20th birthday my Staff said they wanted to put my application for CWO in and asked when my birthday was…finding out it was imminent they changed tack and said they’ll put my application for CI in.

i dont recall ever being asked if i wanted to be a Staff member, nor actively making it known, it just kinda of happened.
As a Cadet i aspired to be a WO, seeing the Sqn WO and wanting to do what he did. And despite not attending any NCO courses* was very competant as an SNCO and wanted to continue doing that role

my then CO was pleased to hear i was looking to get into uniform as soon as possible and it wasnt until 5 or so minutes into the conversation we were talking about a different flavour to the other. he was quite surprised i wanted to go SNCO, he saw a lot of potential in me and really was keen for me to make the move to Commmission. in my mind though i wasnt ready for it, nor was ready to give up being an NCO.

i think it was the right decision. upon appointment my enthusiam was working overtime and had to be reined in a few times, the jump into Staff was a bigger step than i had appreciated and having the “junior” position (rank) in the Staff structure was probably for the best.
in my early staff/uniformed years i moved around alot due to my route through my university course and post graduation with my career so very quickly gained a lot of experience in how different Squadrons operate, particulalry those different to where i was as a Cadet working one of which very much an inner city Sqn, with such a varied mix of Squadron which i think has helped my attitude as Staff.
in the last four years or so i have seen what my then CO saw in me and can see his thought pattern. Since that conversation others have since repeated the CO’s comments and have i slowly been convinced…

to answer TL’s questions
what part of your time as a cadet made you aspire to do what uniformed staff do?
pass! i really cant put my finger on it myself.
i loved drill as a Cadet, and the WO was always the one teaching it and knew everything there was to know about it (DI) and decided that i wanted to do that job

Did you consider military service and decide it wasn’t for you?
yes i considered it, the RAF decided i wasnt for them - see above

Did you never want to be armed forces (reg or reserve) but wanted to work with young people doing the sort of activities the ACO offer, if so, why uniform not CI?
being medically rejected i couldnt join anything, but it never occured to me to become a “youth worker” or that an ATC Staff member was “youth work”. i wanted to be part of “military life” and the ATC offered that to me as a Cadet and the opportunity to continue to do so as a Staff member.

why not a CI? simple, i wanted to return to being an SNCO asap, i enjoyed it too much, leading the troops, taking responsibilty for a team, completing tasks, receiving a briefing and acting on it everything i could continue to do more so than i could as a CI.
That and i loved wearing uniform and drill as a Cadet, two things not available to CIs and so took the obvious route to continue doing that.

*due to educational commitments, GSCEs/A-Levels the weekends allocated for Wing NCO courses always clashed with a deadline for coursework or an exam.

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What made me go from a cdt to uniformed staff?

At 19 the ATC was (and still is) my main hobby. I didn’t want to give it up all together so I decided to stay as adult staff. But in what role? I quickly discounted CI as in my mind 19yo mind I didn’t want to be “just a CI”. With hindsight, I now conclude I didn’t really want to stop being a cadet. Wearing a uniform would keep me in my comfort zone. Not that I would have admitted that at the time.

I decided to go for a commission. My reasoning was that if I was to join the RAF I’d do so as an Officer. 18 months of boards and administrative cock ups later I was given a uniform.

That 18 months as a CI was the most important time I’ve had in the ATC. Gone was the notion of “Just a CI”. What a mistake I’d made there! I was also no longer the wing’s “golden boy” that won every trophy and received too much praise. This was important not because I’m hugely arrogant, I like to think of myself as modest. It was important as my profile in the wing was lowered and therefore people’s expectations that I’d suddenly become “the finest young officer of his generation”. A position I was never going to fulfil. I put most of my cadet success down to my Sqn staff rather than natural talent. Looking back I can see nobody would ever have thought that (Maybe I am hugely arrogant?) Most of the staff in the wing thought I was a tool, some still do.

A few years ensued of being messed around and exploited to plug staffing gaps and running a poor Sqn. I wasn’t ready for the responsibility.

I am sure going into uniform was the correct decision, even if at the time it was for totally the wrong reasons. However, I’m not sure a commission at 20/21 was the right thing to do. A few years at SGT(ATC) would have shielded me from a lot of BS and being given too much responsibility too soon.

It’s all worked out in the end. I’m running a good Sqn whilst learning how to be a better officer and an OC. Which is making the process considerably easier than when I was 20/21.

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Three reasons I think I went for VR(T):

  1. Continuation. It was a logical flow of my hobby. As a CWO I was heavily involved with the running of the Squadron, and I was the Training Officer. It seemed natural to gain my commission and continue this role.
  2. The challenge. VR(T) seemed like the harder route to get in to, which made me more interested in doing it. I liked the idea of being the RAF link to the ATC, and be the policy-maker.
  3. The Standard. At the time a large proportion of Officers in my Wing were older and in various stages of bad health (read: overweight). I wanted to show Cadets that VR(T) was not all about pies and admin, so I took on the commission as a fit, healthy young’un.

Downsides? I can’t do a Drill Instructor’s course, which I continue to think is repressive and draconian.

I continue to strive to be involved with as many activities as possible while still getting all of my work done behind the scenes.

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I was one of the last CWOs to finish at 22. At the end of my Uni degree I had a choice between going into the Regular service (green or blue) or going into the civilian world to use my degree. Given I’d racked up circa £14k of student loan getting the thing, I opted for using my degree.

As such it was a relatively natural flow from CWO to VR(T) as I wanted to continue my hobby, but I wanted the opportunity to make changes, improvements and policy and run my own unit and do the ‘manager’ bit rather than the traditional SNCO type role. It coincided nicely with moving to my first job following Uni and provided me with a good way of getting involved in a new area. My personal view is that the ATC gave me an awful lot of skills as an individual that I still employ today, and I wouldn’t be the same person without it. So I wanted to offer the same opportunities (and more, especially the ones I didn’t get sight of) to future cadets.

Now I’m 6 years into being OC and glad I did, given the amount of grumblings on Facebook I see from regulars PVR’ing!

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I think put simply.

Nobody plans it.

I think you fall into it because it feels right.

I think the great thing about CFAVs is there attitude of giving it go and seeing what happens. As its always such an unknown!

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I’m trying to think of a way of saying “That’s all really interesting” without it looking sarcastic…I really am interested in people’s stories…

Just to add a further question:

For those who were medically fit and considering Armed Forces vs. civilian careers, particularly with ref to degrees/quals etc, why uniformed CFAV and not Reserve Forces?

For me, the natural progression of my cadet ‘hobby’ while in school always seemed to be RAuxAF/TA while in work…

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Because it was the more natural progression.

Employment in the forces vs not was a career decision. Reserve Forces vs CFAV was a spare time decision, and I was already invested in the ATC as a hobby - I enjoyed it, got a lot out of it myself, and also provided a lot of opportunities for others. I doubt I’d get the same level of satisfaction on a personal level from reserve service. I couldn’t quite reconcile in my head why I would want to do something in my spare time that I had no experience of and had actively not chosen NOT to do as a job…

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So what part of your time as a cadet made you aspire to do what uniformed staff do?
I don’t know that it did. I was too busy being a ‘cadet’ and getting stuck into things, to worry about what the staff did or didn’t do. There wasn’t the pressure to be a member of staff or part of the ‘staff team’ as a cadet that so many NCOs and older cadets seem to think they are entitled to be now. In my time as FS and CWO progressed I started to enjoy passing on what I’d learned and “encouraging” newer cadets to get involved and not just sit on their ar$e waiting for it to come to them. I suppose I was part of the ‘staff team’ in modern parlence but it didn’t bother me that I wasn’t regarded as such by the staff. I just go on with it. I do find it irritating that once they hit 18, a number of cadets now feel they belong with the staff and expect to be treated as such. Maybe I’m a bit old school for that.

Did you consider military service and decide it wasn’t for you?
I got a Dear John from Biggin Hill for NCO Aircrew in 1983 saying reapply in a couple of years, but didn’t bother, as I was engaged and settled in work, so the thought of chucking in a job that paid well (this was the mid 80s) on a whim to be in the RAF, was a no brainer. I don’t have regrets or do the what ifs (except for gardening and cookiing), as you’re unlikely to get on with your life, looking over your shoulder. As it is I feel lucky that I didn’t join up, as when I was looking to join it was, what appeared to be, the halycon days of the Cold War and not the uncertainty that has transpired since the early 90s and has spiralled more so in the last 5/6 years. I had mates who joined when I applied and have been ‘binned’ over the last 20 years and not one of them was happy about it.

Did you never want to be armed forces (reg or reserve) but wanted to work with young people doing the sort of activities the ACO offer, if so, why uniform not CI?
I wouldn’t want to / couldn’t be a youth worker as they all come across as Liberal/Lefty hippy types (I’m neither a Liberal/Lefty or hippy) and I’m sure having a right leaning political stance, wouldn’t go down well. I annoy people I know who work in the Public Sector as having worked in the Private all my life, I don’t see a problem with losing staff and cuts etc etc.
As for why uniform and not CI, well I did 5½ years a CI straight after my CWOship ended and had a whale of a time, but got to a stage where I felt my knowledge and experience wasn’t getting utilised to it’s fullest and or respected, so I took the plunge as a WO and a few years on Commissioned. I find being a Sqn Cdr immense fun, annoying and rewarding but enjoy the feeling of autonomy. My WSOs have long since given up getting me to change something that works well, although the faceless paper staplers look like they’ll make us an amorphous blob.

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Redowling sums it up quite well, Reserve Forces vs CFAV is a spare time decision. Mind you back in the 1980s when I potentially had the decision to make, the ‘reserves’ were essentially weekend warriors playing games, unlike now when it can get a lot more serious. We had cadets join the TA and had a bloody good time of it, but one I still see, said he’s glad he’s not in it now.
We only had and still have TA units close by and the Army never interested me one little bit and TBH still doesn’t, if it did I’d be in the ACF. The closest RAF reserve was and still is a good 2½ hour drive one way and to drive 2½ hours for effectively a hobby is not really a hobby, it’s obsessive IMO.

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I took some time out of the organisation whilst at university, which I think helped.

Even as a cadet I knew I’d be back as staff, and I think I always knew it would be as an officer. I just don’t find the traditional SNCO roles interesting enough to keep me coming down 2 nights a week.

I like being in command, even though it has some stupidly stressful and bad days. I did my first promotions the other night, and that’s helped balance out the other side.

I’m definitely more of a planner than an implementer, and although I do both in my current role I feel that I fit the more traditional sense of an officer.

I was actually talked into it by 2 experience OCs on a camp as a CI. they questioned when I would be getting my commission in a joking but leading way, and the fact they thought I’d make a good officer was the push I needed. That and someone else I know had asked the then OC about the process a few days earlier made me make the jump, as I don’t like her and I’m not going to let her better me!

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Seconded.
i think i would get bored as a Reserve as there isnt a large enough continual commitment, i know that may sound weird and trivialises it, but it isnt a weekly cycle, in some cases not always a monthly cycle!

For example on a Friday asking work colleagues their plans for the weekend a typical standard response is “erm…no plans really” and when seeing them on Monday i enquire how their weekend turned out they can’t tell me a single interesting event.

this weekend i am taking part in some weapons training, the weekend after off to Snowdonia, the weekend following Staff development course, the weekend following assisting at a Air Show with more weapons work, Wing Athletics, another community event filling the rest of May and June! i love being busy on the weekends and “living” my life

All of that is just my ACO life, in that time i am also going on a track day, i have my birthday and two other events as part of my other hobbies!

on weeks where the Sqn is shutdown, or the weekends are completely empty i often wonder if this is what non ACO peoples lives must be with so much free time and nothing to fill it with!

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I aged out and became a CI, fully intending to stay that way for a couple of years at least…

That summer I went on camp and spent the whole week being pushed towards VRT by the many officers present and during the week I struggled with having to report dress and discipline issues to the AWO rather than deal with it myself. So after I came back I applied for SNCO.

Some officers in the wing still try and persuade me I’d make a good officer, but I like where I am. :slight_smile:

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Seconded.
i think i would get bored as a Reserve as there isnt a large enough continual commitment, i know that may sound weird and trivialises it, but it isnt a weekly cycle, in some cases not always a monthly cycle!

[/quote]

I do get exactly what you mean. Certainly at the bottom of the food chain (although I do find that if you keep knocking on people’s doors and saying: “What can I do” you can be quite surprised by the tasks you end up with).

I guess what I’m getting at with the Reserve question (and here’s where everyone gets horribly offended) is: if your motivation was to be an officer/wear the uniform rather than your motivation being to be a youth worker, why didn’t you want to do it in a more ‘real’ way?

To me, when I do stuff with the ATC, my motivation is the positive feeling you get from taking the average teenager and helping to turn them into a better adult, while my motivation in joining the Reserves was to wear the uniform and be a part of the Armed Forces.

I can understand the idea that the CFAV stuff is a more ongoing/constant commitment rather than the Reserves continuation training followed by periods of mobilisation/regular service model, which probably suits people better who definitely want a hobby.

I suppose for me, the sense of ‘wanting to wear the uniform’ is linked entirely with the sense of ‘wanting to fight wars’, which is a really bad way of phrasing what I’m trying to describe, but I’m struggling to put the concept into words.

At the risk of an overlong post: I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the attitude of ‘I have no interest in being in the Armed Forces whatsoever, but I want to work with young people and believe that the Air Cadet Organisation offers me the chance to do that in the way I want’. I think most people who have answered talk about being CIs first and then going into uniform, so I suppose my questions are really aimed at the person who goes directly from CWO/whatever to uniform because they want to wear the uniform.

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When I joined the VR(T), going straight from cadet to uniformed adult staff was very rare. As a cadet in the 1970s (yes, that long ago), it never occurred to me to go straight from cadet service to adult uniformed staff and I’m pretty sure my mates at the time, not just in the ATC, but ACF and SCC too, felt the same. It was always accepted that there would be some sort of break. Interestingly, most uniformed staff then were ex military (quite a few ex National Servicemen), with a fair proportion of what I would call ‘Direct Entrants’ ie those with no military experience who had often come to the Corps as adult staff because their sons had joined. I think our views at the time were that you had to have either military or ‘life’ experience to be adult staff.

I left the Corps as a cadet Sgt when I was 19 due to work and College commitments, but I missed it and to be honest, I still had a hankering to join the RAF! I spent a bit of time as a Scout Leader, but it wasn’t the same and I came back to my old Sqn as a CI when I was 22. The CO at that time was the same one who was in charge when I had left and when he interviewed me, the Commissioned route was all he suggested and to be honest, was where I had wanted to go too for the managerial responsibility.

The hankering to join the RAF was still there though and the exposure to the Service that I got when visiting Stns on Camps convinced me to join up. 29 years later, I’m a VR(T) officer again, funny how things go around! In that time, the change in the make up of the uniformed staff cadre is interesting; the number of ex military has reduced considerably and most uniformed staff are now ex cadets who considered going into uniform almost as a natural ‘career progression’ in the organisation. Not that this is a bad thing, but I think it can have its disadvantages, but that’s probably not for this thread!

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The uniform is in many ways an identifing means to an end. You wear a uniform and lay people immediately recognise your involvement. As an officer you get a greater degree of recognition and for many become the POC for the squadron. As OC I don’t have qualms about anyone being a POC as long as I’m kept informed, I know some staff who see it as the OC’s job to be POC for everyone.

I’ve never been one for ‘wanting to wear a uniform’ and every single cadet I have had make the transition have been told quite categorically that they will be a CI for at least 2 years and as their CO I sign the form. If they don’t like that idea, go somewhere else. I have 2 that have done that, one left within 2 years of getting into uniform and the other commissioned, resigned after 8 years, came back after 3 years and re-commissioned after 9 months and apparently is on the verge of resigning again 6 years later. The others have all stayed either as CIs or have made a decent fist of being uniformed staff. I personally feel that spending time as a CI allows
first to see if you’re cut out for being a member of staff, as it is completely different from being a cadet, even in the modern idyll, and, second you can make an objective decision about the role you want and when you want it. Many cadets coming up to ageing out are dazzled by the BS eminating from WSOs about uniformed, especially commissioned, service. Only to find out too late, it’s not as per the brochure. This is what happened to the 2 cadets I mentioned who went for it from day one.

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I agree. There are probably too many in our ‘upper echelons’ who actively push uniformed service immediately after ageing out I guess in order to maintain and harness the cadets’ enthusiasm for the organisation. Regardless of their rank, there should be a compulsory period of CI service, as GHE2 rightly says, adult staff is completely different from cadets service.

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I wouldn’t say this is an old-fashioned point of view. It sounds exactly like my thoughts as a cadet and the reason, I suppose, for starting this thread…I remember distinctly being shocked at the thought that I would go straight from cadet to VRT as a ‘career progression’. Like I said above, to me, the natural progression was cadets -> forces

[quote=“cygnus maximus” post=6044]
In that time, the change in the make up of the uniformed staff cadre is interesting; the number of ex military has reduced considerably and most uniformed staff are now ex cadets who considered going into uniform almost as a natural ‘career progression’ in the organisation. Not that this is a bad thing, but I think it can have its disadvantages, but that’s probably not for this thread![/quote]

I think that’s exactly the type of thing I’d like to discuss on this thread…