Snco as OC Sqn with Officers under their command

What does the difference between Primary and Supernumerary posting really make. If I’m on Squadron staff as a Supernumerary Officer and I turn up every night and outrank the OC how is that really any different to having a Flt Lt on the Squadron as their primary posting?

What if a member of Squadron staff holds a Secondary duty which means that they hold a higher rank, their main posting is as a Squadron Officer but they are also the Wing radio officer and therefore a Flt Lt? Is that going to cause anarchy?

Or are we looking for problems where they don’t really exist?

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Because he’s comfortable in his own skin. Doing it for the benefit of the cadets, not to swan about in 5s at dinners and getting a kick from being saluted at by kids.

Lots of comments that ‘officers’ would leave the organisation if they lost their commission from not taking up an OC role. They’re not the officers RAFAC wants or needs, they’re just adults playing dress up. Good riddance frankly if that’s all it would take for them to leave.

Want some sauce to go with that chip on your shoulder?

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Male bovine excrement.

I want to volunteer, and I happen to want to do so in the same position I held when a regular in the RAF. Just so happens that that’s as an officer.

My circumstances in life right now mean the last thing I want is an OC role (though perfectly happy with an exec role if that’s what the sqn needs). So, if offered an OC post, I’ll refuse.

If the corps decides they don’t want me because of that, they’ve lost a volunteer. Not because I’m throwing my toys of the pram about not being an officer, but because they’re refusing to acknowledge I’m a human with a real life that’s far more important.

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This 100%

I recently put my name in the ring for OC, didn’t meet the WingCo’s requirements, was told to go visit some other squadrons, but i had a lot going on at the time, so i didn’t act on this in a timely manner and they gave the gig to another more Junior Officer at sqn. (NB: I was the only applicant - The other junior officer didnt apply)

Im not bitter, im not gonna resign because of it, im happy plodding along as a junior officer doing the things im good at, supporting those activities and seeing the kids develop into somewhat decent young adults.

But if as @GrandMaster_Flush says thats not good enough for HQAC, im more than happy to relax on those 2 evenings a week and countless weekends. Im sure OC Home Command would be happy too

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HQAC as I’ve said before have little grasp on the realities of life outside the ‘wire’. The world has changed profoundly in the past three years for CFAVs, just those on FTRS do not recognise that in their protected cloistered environment.

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I think also the moans & complaints & blockers why something can’t be done dealt with by HQ are all from the wing volunteers who don’t understand when someone volunteers in a different manner to their expectations.

Trouble is, in the aim to be supportive HQ aren’t challenging the queries referred to them sufficiently.

Our wing has a WexO who is a Civil Service C2 and has not been appointed to a RAFAC comission.
On my squadron we have a Squadron Officer who is an ex regular Wg Cdr and now a RAFAC Fg Off.
It makes not a jot of difference.
Our CO is one of my ex cadets !

We all play our parts in perfect harmony.

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I’m a Sqn Ldr on a Squadron. Not an OC though

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Oh and I’m the OC as a supernumerary to the sqn. Doesn’t impact my primary role

Quite right. Cadets isn’t a professional career or paid employment. It’s a bit of role playing for fun for cadets and CFAVs alike. We pay compliments and obey cadet force orders because that’s part of the game that we all play for a couple of nights of the week. I don’t care if OC is a recent ex-cadet or a 65 year old ex-regular Group Captain.

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I really hate this phrase.

I dont role play.

I dont role play my role as a youth leader dressed in raf uniform…

Do you?

Are you saying you only role play being a youth leader?

Or are you saying when you turn up you are role playing as Biggles?

Or worse… are you not in uniform and simply gripping over nothing you understand?

Anyone who roleplays being Biggles and walts around pretending they are regulars or whatever can as far as im concerned leave the org in shame.

We are youth leaders, in an MOD sponsored uniformed youth organsiation. Those of us commisioned hold CFCs (now). Its not a role play nor Walty to be proud of the volunteering we do, nor the fact we are entitled and required to wear the uniform of our parent service.

If you want to role play, suggest you join a dressing up club or something.

Suggesting those of us with a little pride in what we do is role playing is frankly insulting and dengrates the whole organisation and effort for the kids.

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The only thing I can add that may not have been added so far is that it is unlikely to cause any issues if a junior rank is placed as OIC or OC above more senior ranks but I can day from experience it does confuse the Cadets (mainly the younger ones).

They are taught the rank structure and then in the same breath they may see a Plt Off in charge with Flt Lt or Fg Officers above them.

Keep it simple, if you are a Squadron CFC or SNCO you work through the matrix for promotion. If you are put in charge or a unit, accelerated promotion to Flt Lt in the case of CFC should be given without any input from Wing or Region. If your capable to run a unit in the eyes of the Wing then you should be rewarded with the rank.

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That seems to be being dropped? We now have a few officers running units as OiCs, who are not being promoted to Flt Lt. I think they are expected to fulfil the matrix/time rules regardless.

They can be bumped up 1 rank is my understanding, but as usual it’s upto OC Wing.

For me, the difference is the dyA Supernumerary is, by definition, an extra to the Sqn. Presumably this would mean the person in question has their main duties elsewhere (whether that be another Sqn or the Wing, or whatever). They would presumably then be a Supernumerary to supply a specific thing (support, expertise, experience, etc). The frequency of attendance is down to the person in question then.

There’s always going to be exceptions to the rule (whether that rule be policy or opinion). I’m not saying a lower rank being an OC over a higher rank would cause the world to end, I’m just saying it’s my opinion that we should avoid it where possible.

In an ideal world, sure.

But we exist in the world of volunteers so we deal with the cards we’re given and that’s that.

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When I went to my first OC Conference in 1995 one of the things mentioned was lack of officers generally and this wasn’t the first time it had been mentioned, as a WO running a DF it was interesting. Then when I was on Wing 3 years or so later, at every WSM those of us with area responsibility were tasked with trying to get people to commission and giving progress reports. But there were enough willing to take sqns, so it was a case of keeping topped up. But was there any interest or help from HQAC, to address the number leaving vs joining, nah. They were as they are now, equally clueless, eyes shut, fingers in the ears and la laing like you expect from small children, hoping the nastiness will go away. This level of senior management complacency almost saw the company I eventually worked for nigh on 27 years, nearly go out of business in the mid 80s, not long after I started. It is a big local employer and the fact it had got to that shocked a lot of people.

Am I surprised that people don’t want to be a Sqn Cdr now, no. Being a Sqn Cdr has become a job that eats into your life and if I was being offered a command for the first time, I wouldn’t touch it with someone else’s. There is little to suggest that we have real jobs and families, is respected. Back in the day and there may be some rose tinting but it seemed a much more relaxed existence, post once or maybe twice a week, no compulsory training, no expectation to provide activities most weekends and things seemed to be planned better, with long deadlines. Even when email crept in, it wasn’t used very much. Compared to now with compulsory training, lots of weekend cadet activities/courses, an unwritten expectation that we are available 24/7 because you can do it on your phone or other device wherever you are (something to be avoided, unless the device is supplied), emails that need an instant response, shortened deadlines, activities that need approval with reams of electronic documents for the easiest things and the Bader “big brother” watching your every move, plus we have the HQAC know nothings fiddling with things that do not need fiddling with.

Pontificating about what we do is all well and good, but this IMO lets HQAC off the hook. If people said no and things didn’t happen, it would or should if they were bothered, force HQAC to get into the nuts and bolts of why people won’t and don’t. They have ignored it for probably 3 decades and created the situation of people feeling compelled to do other things. We have had surveys where the awkward things are ignored and just continue. Ad campaigns for cadets great, but if you haven’t got the people on the ground to do the things the kids want and a bigger picture of the advertised things not available, kids walk.

I’m sorry the problem lies firmly and squarely on the door mat of HQAC. The sort of inward blame culture and culture of pressure exerted by CFAV on their fellow CFAV that goes on and evidenced in some of the attitudes expressed here, does not help things. As has been said for years, we are not employed or paid, we are unpaid volunteers and whatever that volunteering experience looks like for each individual is fine, regardless, the organisation has to resect and go along with it and the organisation has to change, not people change to the organisation. This happens elsewhere in the voluntary sector. So, why not within the Air Cadets, what is so special about the Air Cadets that it seems incapable of changing to suit the people volunteering?

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i think the point being made is we are all volunteers and the only difference between us (be it CI, SNCO, Officer) is the title on the board interview.

there is very little if any difference (ignoring the OASC applicants) between SNCOs and Officers in terms of their appointment and training that warrants any true authority or seniority.

there are SNCOs that would have been streamed towards Officer by their attitude, aptitude, qualifications or other skills had they gone through the RAF/MOD for regular service.
Likewise I am certain there are RAFAC Officers who wouldn’t passed the first interview for the regulars.

when it boils down to it the different cloths we wear on our shoulders are meaningless in that they don’t really indicate a minimum level of aptitude, skills or knowledge - it just means when you went to Cranwell you did a different course to those on the other side of the commissioned line.

As a result we “play the game” by accepting Flt Lt Green is more senior than FS Williams simply because of that cloth and the route they got there, not because that route weeded out the weak and the underperforming and that the rank they wear is a true reflection of their abilities
considering the SNCOs ranks it is simply a tick box exercise so to suggest FS Williams really does have seniority or authority over Sgt Curtis is rose tinted.
By Sgt Curtis accepts that FS Williams has at the very least achieved the minimum standards (which are exceptionally low) to wear a badge of rank which implies seniority and authority.

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Can’t say this is particularly accurate now (having a little one makes parade nights almost impossible for me now given travel times) however I am still supernumerary and will run some activities in summer for example. But I have been there regularly as a Sqn Ldr under a Flt Lt OC.

It’s dead easy. I defer to the OC for all decisions on the running of the squadron, and do as I’m asked to - unless something happens to fall into my remit as an SME, where I would have a polite conversation if I felt a decision was not correct / unsafe. Doesn’t mean I’m not effective in my primary role - if I need to do primary role stuff, the OC understands that takes a priority. Not rocket science…just good comms and planning.

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