Not sure why they made that so messy by de-coupling the post noms from a medal…
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That’s 100% what we should have, who gives a stuff about a Commandants Commendation? (or an AOC one for that matter).
Absolutely, we went tankless with everything else when John Major overhauled the system.
Policing differentiates with the medals too, so you can get a KPM for good work or a KPM for gallantry, both called the KPM but with different ribbons. If we did go that KPM route for the love of god don’t use their criteria for dishing it out where it only seems to go to senior officers.
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Back on topic. Should there be a cadet forces MSM……er No! There’s a CFM for that with bars as required.
Except the MSM / KVRM / KPM aren’t for that: they’re for meritorious / exemplary / distinguished service in organisations that also have entirely separate medals for long or efficient service.
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Kind of missing the point, the CFM is a long service award whats being proposed is a Meritorious Award
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There is already a certificate for Meritorious Service and aDCLA. Not as nice as a badge agreed but they still exist.
But the point is that certificates are pants.
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I wouldn’t go that far.
It’s about levels. Also about finding a way to increase recognition where a certificate doesn’t feel sufficient (or has already been earned) but the state honours are out of reach.
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I would agree.
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Can never get my head around the DCLA against the other awards out there, where it sits in the hierarchy, etc.
Just below MBE I’m told.
Not worth the paper they are written on in the real world
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this is an interesting comment.
It suggests that any recognition we get should mean something outside of the organisation - i do not necessarily disagree but i wonder how widespread that approach is?
With a separate volunteering hat on (RBL) I have two internal certificates of appreciation (one at Branch level and one at County level, ie Sqn and Wing equavalents) the only other recognition i know of is the odd, few and far between BEM and other such state awards but these are obviously not common.
While I do not volunteer for either RBL or RAFAC for (a tangible) reward or recognition, i have been awarded with what is available (certificates in both and a CFM from RAFAC). Now I do recognise that the CFM is not recognising “meritorius service” and perhaps does open up a gap there which could be filled and how i understand this conversation has got started.
But why a medal and not just a certificate? Other organisations be that other youth (eg Scouts) or simply other voluntary roles (eg RBL) do not get a medal and “get by” with internal recognition (be that a certificate, trophy or other award) with the odd few getting a state award - not hugely different to the RAFAC.
So why is this conversation looking at a medal?
I can only assume becauase of what CFAVs do we are eligible for medals (jubilee, coronation and long service) which our “Regular” cousins are also eligible for, who are also eligible for “meritorious service medal” of some shape and form.
i do wonder though, is that reason enough that a CAFV gets a gong to wear while a Scout leader who has a very similiar, if not greater impact in their corner of the community does not?
or is it just how the cards are dealt, they miss out on jubilee medals for the same reason so it is just tough that any meritorious medal available for youth volunteering isn;t available to them?
Why not have a volunteers meritorius service medal - thus open to all. I am lost to why CFAVs are more eligible for a medal than Scout leaders simply because of our link to the RAF and thus the military tradition of recognition through medals.
i am guessing the argument will come back that the BEM is a “catch all” for this kind of thing, suitable for all volunteering sectors who have put in the effort, which then promotes the argument that CFAVs should not fall under the “military arm” of state awards and be restricted as such and should have a more open access to the BEM?
I think part of the problem is that you are clearly held to a military standard for recognition on the honours list, where civilians frequently get recognised for stuff the CFAVs do in their sleep.
Therefore, certificates lose their power.
I have many friends I’ve kept in touch with and even things like LL awards have lost their gravitas because so many get them eventually (because the pyramid of recognition is broken).
In theory, cadet forces medallic recognition should help that pyramid, with cadet forces able to better-control its award.
Edit: The other problem is that because the regular military make it so hard for you to be recognised with medallic recognition, the message it sends is that your efforts (all done in your own time) aren’t considered as valuable. A huge part of the problem is that you’re constantly pestered for nominations, but aren’t frequently and consistently recognised.
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this is the problem that needs fixing in my opinion. permit CFAVs to be on the civilian list
solve that issue, instead of finding a way to by-pass the problem by offering a new award.
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Half agree.
I think there’s still objective value in something like this. Do other organisations do it? Mostly no, but the order of St John do, if I’m not mistaken?
It enhances the offer and message of being valued if there’s an extra rung, just as it does with the other service awards focussed on things like reservists only.
It’s another way to mark contribution in your specific field, rather than only having the option of being compared against others across the country who do wildly different things.
A richer picture allows for greater nuance.
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Big thing with medals vs certificates
Medals once presented are often worn publicly ant official events or as badges giving indication to everyone of the achievements not just for the awards evening. Some allow post nominal which adds to the recognition of the achievement.
Certificates are framed & put on the wall (normally downstairs lav) - they are effectively private acknowledgement of achievement. You are publicly awarded then forgotten about.
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This. ^
I know of so many people who don’t even frame them. Unless it comes from a really prestigious and respected source, it holds no weight.
If the people receiving them don’t value them, then what’s the point in awarding them?
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This is a long service medal too, looking at this
The Service Medal of the Order of St John is awarded to recognise both conspicuous and long service with the Venerable Order of St John, particularly in St John Ambulance
I still feel this discussion is only considering a “medal” as that is simply an option open to us and struggle to see why we need to be brandishing such recognition when other youth workers do not get that opportunity for a state medal or feel it necessary (ie with their own “medal”)
I do wear my Jubilee and CFM medals, but it is a “quirk” of the organisation that I am entitled to them, I am no more dedicated, committed or competent that some Scout or Guide leaders I rub shoulders with on Remembrance parades.
Maybe I am being too “British” about this and not wanting to shout about our own achievements but it seems a little odd that CFAVs could be entitled to wear something so recognisable as a medal for doing a good job when other volunteer youth leaders are not entitled to wear anything through their own means
i do get that - as a CFM is pretty much automatic (ok we have to apply for it ourselves) and requires nothing out of the ordinary - why shouldn’t there be something more for those top 2%, i completely agree.
and why I feel the BEM should be made more available to CFAVs. There are numerous examples of people receiving this for similar or lesser effort than the top 2% of CFAVs so why not use this already available solution work for this problem than try to reinvent the wheel?
this is great shame - all of my certificates (RAFAC and RBL) were presented in a frame and so are easily put up on display around the house.
Could this be as much an issue with the people’s attitude receiving them as the value of the award though?
To some the CFM is a chocolate medal that is meaningless, while to others it is a source of great pride and sense of achievement. One’s mans junk is another man’s treasure. I know a CFAV who is entitled to a CFM with clasp but hasn’t even applied for the medal - they’ve told me they only wear No1s twice a year and so see no value in applying for recognition for it to be barely worn.
I know another CFAV who is a Sgt and feels the same about applying for FS - they are the sort who has will have completed the matrix without trying and so likely have 90% of it ticked off twice but sees no value in filling out the paperwork for the crown as it makes no difference to them and is time best spent on admin which benefits the cadets.
I am sure there are some who do value the certificates of recognition - although in my experience these go to the people who are so dedicated and committed it makes no difference to them if the CoC acknowledges their effort, as their rewards is the thanks and appreciation the Cadets give them at the end of an event that they strive for.
St John have the service medal which is, these days, for long service. But they also have the Order where they can appoint people as Members, Officers, Commanders, Knight/Dame(without the associated title) or Grand Cross. They also still get British Empire awards as well
That would be akin to an MSM type medal, albeit the proposal above wouldn’t include grades