I don’t think anyone is saying 18 year olds shouldn’t be a part of the organisation.
Rather we’re saying that they should be adult staff.
I think that most of us are of the same mindset. The difficulty is that the requirement that the cadet “add benefit” to the Corps can be applied in differing fashion. In some quarters the reasons accepted by the CoC for keeping them are more prescriptive than in others.
I’d happily state that having a good NCO remain in their position is benefit enough; particularly in contrast to the negative effect that their leaving would bring. However “simply being an NCO” is not considered an acceptable reason in my part of the world.
One of my biggest annoyances with the Staff Cadet system is the requirement for them to complete all the box-ticking before they turn 18.
We are told that we should consider them to be “probationary staff”, however any new CI off the street is brought in as probationary staff first and then expected to complete all the training within a suitable time. With Staff Cadets we expect them to complete it all when they are 17 - before they become “probationary staff”.
As if they weren’t busy enough already at 17 years old with studies, jobs, and whilst still trying to enjoy the benefits of being a cadet (which is supposedly the whole reason for keeping them a staff cadets vs CFAV)…
Why can we not get them to complete the DBS (to avoid a mandatory break) but wait until they turn 18 before demanding that they complete the Safeguarding training, and attend AVIP, and develop a skills which “adds value”?
If they want to get that stuff done in advance then certainly, we could open it to them, but the fact that we don’t have a level playing field baffles me.
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Without wishing to be rude, you say you don’t want to start another staff cadet abolishment debate but I’m really struggling to see how this is any different from any form of this question asked before?
You know my opinions from exchanges we have had on threads over the years. Staff cadets are treated disgustingly. If you are one, I really feel sorry for you.
This seems like the same question that is asked year aster year after year. They should be treated as adult CFAV. Maybe a bit more training is needed, but to give someone the responsibilities of being staff but not giving them the perks of not paying subs and the bar issue etc is despicable and they get used.
I think the best we can hope for is the new Commandant addressing the issue. Let’s keep our fingers crossed 
.
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No on this, unless we bin 18+ and bring them into the staff side at 18, without a uniform. I speak as an old styke CWO and Staff Cadet who was a “youff” until my 22md birthday.
I have thought since shortly after the debacle of 2003 we should end cadet service at 18, as since 2003 the over 18 cadre has almost been continually experimented on with all the guff about being high flying and other BS. As “staff cadets” they are staff when we want and not if we don’t. Getting rid of the nonsense of being a cadet over 18, when they do all the mind numbing things we do as staff, would level the playing field for them and us. The clarity may even encourage more to stay on, rather than go on with the fudge. I would still keep adult uniform at 20, to give them a couple of years before the notion of being unformed staff can be broached, to allow for time to adjust to being staff and making the decision for themselves.
The only reason we keep them in and in uniform is because various HQs brick it that they’ll lose young adults whose egos they can massage to make them stay on, might even say groom. I’ve had several stay on and become staff, but at no point did I ever said they are wonderful and or the next best thing or treat them differently.
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You see, I would say that those who have been Cadet NCOs should have a direct route into uniform as they do in the SCC (and I know that I sound like an SCC ambassador lately) because they’re already in the habit of “being an NCO”.
Certainly it will be a change to become staff regardless, but I think that asking them to break that habit and step into the CI role - which is a step away from the normal NCO duties - for two years before possibly stepping back into it again is a bit much without any real benefit; and I think that it’s unnecessary.
I remember going from one of two Cdt FSs (at that time without an CWO and having had no AWO on the unit for several years) to becoming a CI… It was… “Challenging” shall we say; and massively frustrating.
They’re in the flow of being an NCO; let’s just step them up to A/Sgt and develop them ‘in role.’
Unless they chose to become a CI of course.
errrr @wdimagineer2b that is already a thing.
ACP 20 PI 201 Par 1.c - ELIGIBILITY FOR APPOINTMENT TO A COMMISSION
Be an ex-cadet who has reached the rank of CWO, FS or Sgt and who has served as a cadet for a minimum of 4 years and is aged between 20 and 25.
ACP 20 PI 301 Par 2 - ESTABLISHMENT AND APPOINTMENT INTO THE RAF AIR CADETS – WOs, SNCOs AND SNCOs AIRCREW (ATC)
Potential SNCO adult members of staff may be recommended for appointment following ATC cadet service
I’m talking about at 18, in replacement of Staff Cadet; and more specifically in response to Teflon’s suggestion that at 18 would should make them CIs.
ahh ok. then absolutely agree.
For me there is a world of difference between being a cadet and being a member of staff. I spent 4½ yrs as a CI, gave me a chance make up my mind about which way and if I jumped wrt uniform and I got married in that spell.
I could have commissioned from 20, but I’d seen mates do this and leave as it wasn’t what they thought.
How many youngsters (I use that word form my advanced years perspective) do you see say they are bunt out and leave because they’ve felt pressured in uniform. Just think 20 to potentially 65 in adult service in uniform, no salary, no pension or ‘gold watch’, just years of being hounded (in the modern ATC) to do things and do the same things mostly.
Sorry to pick on you Teflon - I’ve seen similar sentiments throughout this thread, yours was just the first one I saw when I decided to reply.
Why is it like this? Staff Cadets can do most of what CFAV can do, and then they can also do the stuff we allow cadets to do. If we want to make sure staff cadets feel empowered as adults - which we should - why are we deciding when they are staff?
Simple answer, and I know this is what we did when I was a staff cadet, and we still do on my unit - talk to the staff cadets, let them plan what they want to run as much as they want it, same as we would a CFAV. That way they can be as “adult-y” as they want to be, run the activities they want to be, and we can facilitate that.
The only difference is that they won’t receive VA - just like a CI wouldn’t.
There is no reason for there to be a feeling that staff cadets have a bad deal - they have the deal we, at a local level, give them.
(that said, if HQAC are reading - just stop charging welfare/subs, that’s the only bit that’s not fair!)
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I agree.
But one does not have to be in civvies to make that adjustment; and I disagree that we should force those who want to continue straight into uniformed CFAV service to step away from the NCO role to be a CI.
Frankly, I think we’re far more likely to lose people by telling them “You’re a CI now. I know you want to be a Sgt, but you’re going to have to wait until you’re twenty… So for the next two years you’re going to have nothing to do with drill or discipline; and all the work you’ve been doing as part of the Cadet NCO team is to cease.”
That can be a local decision too 
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only if the local unit has the funds for it, though - I know we don’t!
I agree exactly. All mine are 100% my staff team with the bonus of being able to participate in activities rather than lead them if they want to. They get votes in staff meetings, they are consulted on areas of the squadron like other staff. I’m happy for them to call me by my first name when out of earshot of other cadets. It usually comes down to the person that’s responsible making life more difficult for them, not always the organisation
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100% how it should be. I’ve seen first and second hand the wrong way to treat staff cadets, and this is the complete right way to do it. It’s amazing how the small things can motivate someone so much.
Previously my two senior cadet NCOs were both staff cadets. That was easy enough to work with. They were “staff” and came and went from the office the same as the CFAVs.
They both gone now and I’m soon to be in the odd situation of having a staff cadet NCO who is outranked by the two under-18 senior cadet NCOs.
That’s not as tidy.
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Surely CFAV is defined in JSP814? (haven’t got time to check right now)
The closest it comes, as far as I can see, is this:
[Context: Who needs BPSS]
All CFAV (Officers and non-commissioned ranks), civilian
instructors and supporting staff.
So that opens a whole new can of worms as it implies CIs aren’t CFAVs…
Though it does say this too, slightly before the above:
4.1.1. General. Each CF has various categories of CFAV, and further details of these can be found in the respective CF publications. However, the following policy applies to all CFAV.
I cannot fathom why staff cadets should have to pay subs etc, they’re treated like 12 year olds by many yet often take senior roles on the sqn such as adj, trg off etc (granted this isn’t common, but they certainly help) Staff Cadets do it for the cadets, rarely themselves. They dont get VA, they dont get the respect and recognition, yet sometimes will do more than their counterpart 30 years their senior. Odd.
Why even have staff cadets, RAFAC just wants to be different 
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As I said above, this is very much a local problem. I treat all mine with respect and no real difference between them and a CI/Sgt. I do need to get our committee to agree to them not paying subs though.
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