Speaking with my shooting bod last night and it appears another revision to ACTO 43 has been snuck out and as you’d expect it isn’t without issue:
[quote]Para 06 - …Neither cadets nor CFAVs may fire or have in their possession any of the above weapons other
than air rifles until they have been enrolled, in the case of Cadets or had their appointment
confirmed by HQAC in the case of adults…[/quote]
Which contradicts:
[quote]Small Bore (.22) Rifles
25. All cadets, including Junior Cadets, are to be encouraged to fire a small bore (0.22”)
range practice annually. All firers must have passed the No 8 Rifle WHT within the preceding 6
months. All firing is to take place in the prone position.[/quote]
How can you encourage a jnr cdt to fire a small bore rifle if they have to be enrolled to do so?
Other points:
[quote]27. To be eligible to fire L81A2 rifles cadets are to meet the following requirements:
c. Have successfully completed the Small Bore Target Rifle Test (see ACTO 44) to
Wing Marksman standard. [/quote]
This now means that unless a sqn forks out for a small bore target rifle like an Anschutz, they will not have cadets eligible to fire the L81 (of course you could look at borrowing one).
And they have reinserted the age limits for L81/L98, which I thought was a good removal. You can have tiny 14 year olds allowed to fire it, but massive 13 year olds who can’t. Doesn’t make much sense to me.
It really is unacceptable to have a significant document being changed (a) without highlighting the changes & (b) no*** formal notification of the reissue of the document.
(*** = nothing sent out in our part of the word as far as I’m aware.)
Note also the Sharepoint announcement about changes to PAM21C, some “action” items to be aware of.
Anyone know what’s actually changed in PAM21C? I only had a quick flick through, but didn’t see any paragraph bars indicating where the amendments were?
The link is listed on the scrolling Announcements area, the details are changes to 'phone numbers for notification of incident/accident, heating protection, DCCT qualifications, air rifle barrel clearing, & butt marking on gallery ranges.
As previously mentioned, the reference to ACTO44 (Small Bore Target Rifle Test - Wg standard) is confusing, in that the required standard has to be obtained on a NSRA 10 diagram target (that we use rarely, if ever) with a total score of 170/200 = 85/100 = exceptionally difficult (if not impossible) with the No 8 rifle. The intention is obviously to use a higher quality target rifle, which very few sqns (if any) now have. I suspect that ACO HQ (TG5) meant to say Small Bore Service Rifle Test = No 8. The specification excludes air rifle, which penalises some sqns (including ours).
However, in reality, that will also be very limiting in that prior .22 range access, time, etc, will be needed in order to progress to L81A2; it is already hard enough to get cadets trained & qualified to use the L81A2, so I see this change could be detrimental to progression of shooting.
The notification of revision of any ACTO should be promulgated in a standardised format - HQ ACO sponsor to email all sqns. If the ACTO doesn’t have a privacy or security classification, it should be included as an attachment. OC Sqns could then forward to all staff (or the nominated specialist) to ensure maximum publicity & speedy notification. Why do we have to suffer what is often a haphazard system, with flaws & gaps, that is reliant on old-fashioned methods?
Also, in any document that has been revised, the lack of side-lining (or otherwise highlighting changes) is grossly inefficient; the sponsor should do this (once) to allow all CFAVs to easily pick up the changes, It is even more important with documents that have safety-related items that require mandatory action - such as shooting ACTOs.
New potential cadet comes along and is interested in joining. Is handed the paperwork
[color=#0000ff]Not A Cadet[/color]
New potential cadet brings back completed and signed F3822A. They are now covered by the ATC insurance scheme.
[color=#0000ff]Cadet (“Junior Cadet”)[/color]
Cadet passes necessary first stages of training and is enrolled on Bader SMS (and possibly in a wee ceremony). F3822 generally issued around now, but that may vary by unit.
[color=#0000ff]Cadet (“Second Class Cadet”)[/color]
Cadet completes First Class syllabus and is awarded the First Class Badge
[color=#0000ff]Cadet (“first Class Cadet”)[/color]
I have been thinking about this having been brought to my attention
is this a case of bad grammer?
are we reading this as a “target rifle” test - ie a test for more than the No8 (being as it isn’t a target rifle)?
or should this be read as “small bore target” test - ie…targets for small bore shooting and the tests surrounding that (see Annex ACTO043) ??
is there a comma missing somewhere in that line which implies target rifle, but actual means a rifle test on small bore targets?
maybe i am clutching at straws but given the usual clarity available in the various ACPs and ACTOs we are expected to follow there are a selection of situations where the same line can be read and taken in different ways…
as paranoid, pessimistic CFAVs who instantly spot the negatives in ACPs/ACTOs in the way which effects us most?
Incubus, that’s pretty much how SMS “badges” them - when you enter them into the system (via completed 3822A) but don’t complete the enrollment section they go on as “Junior Cadet” as far as SMS is concerned. Once you complete the enrollment section they them move to “Second Class”.
As above. Once they start attending things, they are junior cadets. Once they have completed the mandatory RAF/ATC training, they can be enrolled (as second class cadets). Once they then finish first class training they are first class cadets.
The above, whilst only saying “encourage” gives us a problem. How do you encourage someone to do something they’re not permitted to do?
As for Steve, no I think it’s very clear. The idea being that you use a small bore target rifle before progressing to the full bore target rifle so you get used to the idea. The 2 tests in ACTO 44 differ enormously - the “target rifle test” is a grouping. The service rifle test is deliberate, snap, rapid and grouping, timed and not suited to the target rifles.
I think the idea is for helping progression to the L81. The problem is making it so restrictive means you’re actually stiffling progression as units without their own NSWs will miss out.
Nope, it is DELIBERATE shooting on 10 different aiming marks for one NSRA card, then repeated for the second card. Incidentally, the scoring required for “Tgt Rifle” Wg (170/200) is the same as for the Air Rifle. albeit for air rifle, it’s 2 shots are fired on each of 5 aiming marks (2 separate cards).
The main difference between No 8 // L98 & the L81 = blade foresight versus aperture foresight. For deliberate shooting, the same principles of marksmanship have to be applied; for aperture sights, it’s generally easier - no aiming off for any sight inaccuracies & consistent sight picture (no “how much white should I have between the tin hat aiming mark & the foresight” issues). I discount the single shot aspects!
Nope, it is DELIBERATE shooting on 10 different aiming marks for one NSRA card, then repeated for the second card. Incidentally, the scoring required for “Tgt Rifle” Wg (170/200) is the same as for the Air Rifle. albeit for air rifle, it’s 2 shots are fired on each of 5 aiming marks (2 separate cards).
The main difference between No 8 // L98 & the L81 = blade foresight versus aperture foresight. For deliberate shooting, the same principles of marksmanship have to be applied; for aperture sights, it’s generally easier - no aiming off for any sight inaccuracies & consistent sight picture (no “how much white should I have between the tin hat aiming mark & the foresight” issues). I discount the single shot aspects! ;-)[/quote]
That’s me not being au fait with the lingo, sorry!
New potential cadet comes along and is interested in joining. Is handed the paperwork
[color=#0000ff]Not A Cadet[/color]
New potential cadet brings back completed and signed F3822A. They are now covered by the ATC insurance scheme.
[color=#0000ff]Cadet (“Junior Cadet”)[/color]
Cadet passes necessary first stages of training and is enrolled on Bader SMS (and possibly in a wee ceremony). F3822 generally issued around now, but that may vary by unit.
[color=#0000ff]Cadet (“Second Class Cadet”)[/color]
Cadet completes First Class syllabus and is awarded the First Class Badge
[color=#0000ff]Cadet (“first Class Cadet”)[/color]
Etc.[/quote]That was also my understanding - I seem to recall that the point of the “Junior Cadet” label was to replace the term “Probationer”?
[quote=“pEp” post=22031]Speaking with my shooting bod last night and it appears another revision to ACTO 43 has been snuck out and as you’d expect it isn’t without issue:
[quote]Para 06 - …Neither cadets nor CFAVs may fire or have in their possession any of the above weapons other
than air rifles until they have been enrolled, in the case of Cadets or had their appointment
confirmed by HQAC in the case of adults…[/quote]
Which contradicts:
[quote]Small Bore (.22) Rifles
25. All cadets, including Junior Cadets, are to be encouraged to fire a small bore (0.22”)
range practice annually. All firers must have passed the No 8 Rifle WHT within the preceding 6
months. All firing is to take place in the prone position.[/quote]
How can you encourage a jnr cdt to fire a small bore rifle if they have to be enrolled to do so?
[/quote]
so it would seem this was brought up over a year ago
With the current ban on NSW and thus Small Bore Target Rifles how am I supposed to get cadets to Wing Marksman standard or above to make them eligible to fire the L81A2.
It would have been hard enough as it was given that I’m not aware of any access to Small Bore Target Rifles locally anyway…
Is this the end of L81 shooting except for the richer units?
